Creating a Sci-Fi Action Comedy: Max Reload and the Nether Blasters

Today we're pulling back the curtain on the world of indie filmmaking with our special guests, Scott and Jeremy, the innovative masterminds behind the sci-fi action comedy, Max Reload and the Nether Blasters. Embark with us on a journey that takes us from the spark of an idea for a small indie sci-fi film for Comic-Con, to the successful production of their own short film. Scott and Jeremy's passion and dedication to their craft is palpable throughout our conversation, as they reveal their unique approach to film development, their love for geeky cinema and how they have shaken up the firearms industry with their work.

Scott and Jeremy are not just filmmakers, but dreamers, and their audaciousness is evident as they discuss the ambitious project that is Max Reload. They brought together a skilled team of technicians, craftsmen, artists, and even collaborated with a London-based animator to create breathtaking pixel art sequences for the film. We explore their creative process, including their approach to animation and visual effects, how they've overcome challenges and tackled difficult transitions, and how they drew inspiration from 80s classics like Ghostbusters and Last Starfighter.

Our guests also open up about the invaluable lessons they've learned along their journey and how these experiences have shaped their future endeavors. They share insightful advice for aspiring filmmakers, particularly those interested in visual effects, emphasizing the importance of planning, openness to collaboration, and flexibility. From the development of the nether creature visuals, the creation of a realistic puppet, to the consistent look of the nether possessed characters, Scott and Jeremy have managed to masterfully navigate the challenges of indie filmmaking. Join us for this captivating conversation and let's together discover the inspiring world of indie filmmaking.

Offensive Marketing Group: https://www.offensivegroup.com/

Max Reload website: http://www.cineforgemedia.com/maxreloadmovie.html

More Max Reload: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLk8FNZ40x8GR4bLgAQVRkVEZnVTMmhh9t

Show No Mercy: https://youtu.be/opTYJ6IRitw?si=0GTMKvcgcQVjt8He

Transcript

[Paul DeNigris]: A long lost Colecovision cartridge imbued

with an ancient evil incantation releases

[Paul DeNigris]: the forces of darkness on an unsuspecting

populace, and humanity's only

[Paul DeNigris]: hope is a trio of video game nerds,

aided by genre legend Greg Grunberg and

[Paul DeNigris]: indie film icon Kevin Smith in Max Reload

and the Nether Blasters.

[Paul DeNigris]: This week on the VFX for Indies podcast.

[Paul DeNigris]: With me today are Scott Conditt

and Jeremy Tremp, the masterminds behind the

[Paul DeNigris]: indie sci-fi action comedy,

Max Reload and the Nether Blasters, which my

[Paul DeNigris]: team and I were privileged

to create over 500 visual effects shots for.

[Paul DeNigris]: Welcome to the podcast, guys.

[Scott]: Hey, thanks Paul.

[Jeremy]: Happy to be here, man.

[Scott]: Yeah, man. Pleasure to be here.

[Paul DeNigris]: Right on. It's been a while.

Haven't seen these guys in person in quite

[Paul DeNigris]: a while because they're busy.

I'm busy. They are kicking ass with their new

[Paul DeNigris]: company, Offensive Marketing

Group, which we will hear about. Why don't

[Paul DeNigris]: you guys give us a quick overview

of who you guys are individually and as a partnership.

[Paul DeNigris]: Tell us a little bit about

Cineforge and about your newest venture, OMG.

[Jeremy]: Kick it off sir.

[Scott]: Yeah I'm Scott Conditt, a 41 year old filmmaker, I like long

[Scott]: walks on the beach.

[Jeremy]: You're old dude.

[Scott]: I know I'm aging out man. No so I'm

[Scott]: Scott Conditt, I'm one of the

creative directors and owners here at Offensive

[Scott]: Marketing Group, filmmaker,

creative writer, huge fan of Foxtrot X-Ray

[Scott]: and Mr. Paul DeNigris,

and yeah one of the directors from Max Reload

[Scott]: and the Nether Blasters, a

fun little sci-fi action comedy we did. few

[Scott]: years back, which is now in

worldwide distribution.

[Jeremy]: Heck yeah, cool. Yeah,

[Jeremy]: I'm Jeremy Tremp. Little

bit of history, I graduated film school in

[Jeremy]: 08 and then just kind of jumped

right into the film set. Thankfully, when I

[Jeremy]: graduated film school, Michigan

had just passed, I think it was like 45% film

[Jeremy]: incentive. It was the highest

in the nation, which was absolutely crazy.

[Jeremy]: So tons of independent and

like lower Hollywood productions were. filming

[Jeremy]: there. And so that gave me

the opportunity to get on a lot of pretty big

[Jeremy]: sets as a assistant camera

and then camera operator as well on a few of

[Jeremy]: those. So I was able to really

dive in quickly. And then from there, I kind

[Jeremy]: of pivoted and wanted to start

my own thing and ended up directing and shooting

[Jeremy]: hundreds of music videos and

doing a lot of photography. And then we linked

[Jeremy]: up in about 2015 or so and

started to make some cool stuff and ultimately

[Jeremy]: led to Max Reload that we

started shooting in what? 2018 I think it was.

[Scott]: Yeah, winter of 2018.

[Jeremy]: Yeah. And now I'm also a co-founder, creative director

[Jeremy]: at Offensive Marketing Group,

which is the bread and butter day to day at

[Jeremy]: this point. Yeah. Where we

take our cinematic storytelling background

[Jeremy]: and put that towards marketing

the outdoor sectors. So.

[Scott]: And combining that

[Scott]: love of cinema, right? We've

had a chance to not only hit the hard edge

[Scott]: of the marketing side of the

firearms industry, but. We've got a chance

[Scott]: to work the cinematic side

of our life into it too, working with teams

[Scott]: like 8711 Action Design, the

John Wick Stunt team, and things like that

[Scott]: for higher end commercial

spots. So bringing that studio quality flair

[Scott]: to the firearms industry has

really been where OMG has been different from

[Scott]: most of the conventional marketing

in this space today.

[Paul DeNigris]: you're definitely tying in

your love of geek cinema. I remember a spot

[Paul DeNigris]: that you worked on not too

long ago that was very inspired by my favorite,

[Paul DeNigris]: Blade Runner. I know you've

done some recent stuff inspired by Predator.

[Paul DeNigris]: And it's very cool to see you

guys work the geeky cinema lover angle into

[Paul DeNigris]: the firearm space. And I'm

sure your clients eat that shit up. They

[Jeremy]: Yeah,

[Paul DeNigris]: must love it.

[Jeremy]: that's a lot of fun. It's

cool to see the audience reaction wanting more

[Jeremy]: asking for longer versions,

the full movie length, the video game version,

[Jeremy]: right? Like it's really cool

to service that, you know, which that's us,

[Jeremy]: right? We are those consumers

as well. So we're just trying to make cool

[Jeremy]: shit for people like us.

[Scott]: Yeah, that's kind of the unique thing too about like

[Scott]: our passion. It's sci-fi action.

What are those things all inherently have infusing

[Scott]: the Blade Runner? Cool guns,

man. So it's It's an inseparable part of Hollywood

[Scott]: that we found a way to bring

to the forefront of what we do every day here.

[Paul DeNigris]: Awesome. Well, before we dive

into Max Reload, give us some highlights, because

[Paul DeNigris]: I know Max Reload was built

on a series of steps, right? You guys were

[Paul DeNigris]: kind of working towards that

with some of the films that you worked on,

[Paul DeNigris]: some of the shorts and documentaries

and things like that. So just give us the quick

[Paul DeNigris]: highlights of kind of the formative

years of your partnership leading towards Max.

[Jeremy]: Yeah, man. When we first got

together and linked up, we talked about doing,

[Jeremy]: I think it was like a film

competition or something like that. For Comic-Con.

[Jeremy]: Yeah, and we were going to

do some like Metroid versus Halo or something

[Jeremy]: silly. And we just kind of

came to the conclusion that was way outside

[Jeremy]: of realistic, right? Because

you've got to get these costumes and all these

[Jeremy]: different props and whatnot.

And I think we scrapped that idea, and we decided

[Jeremy]: just to make a short film.

[Scott]: Yeah, and dude, Paul, you know us super well

[Scott]: having been in the trenches

with us for years and all the work we did on

[Scott]: Max. What started out like

with us going back to the drawing board saying,

[Scott]: okay, that's too, too grand.

Let's go back to zero independent filmmaking

[Scott]: mindset. Let's work with what

we've got. Let's be more realistic, quickly

[Scott]: evolved and spiraled again,

out of control into, well, we've got a loose

[Scott]: connection to Martin Kove

from Karate Kid. And now Cobra Kai is like

[Scott]: his revived fame. And this

concept that we had for what was supposed to

[Scott]: be a little short indie sci-fi

film for Comic-Con went way too big. Then we

[Scott]: went way small, scaled it

back and then spiraled out of control. And

[Scott]: we made a little film called

Show No Mercy that had a ton of VFX in it.

[Scott]: It had people getting sucked

into video game, old school arcade machines,

[Scott]: little shootout scene and

flying people in from Hollywood. And it was

[Scott]: still a very small little

short. But after that. and doing that the way

[Scott]: that we know how, which is

still super independent and scrappy and no

[Scott]: budget. Wearing many hats.

Wearing many hats, we're like, dude, I think

[Scott]: we can work together beyond

this because we survived this experience. So

[Scott]: it evolved from there.

[Jeremy]: Yeah. And then we jumped into Game Jam, the movie,

[Jeremy]: which was more of an opportunity

that we were given to produce for another company.

[Jeremy]: And we turned that into, again,

something way bigger than it initially was

[Jeremy]: scoped out as, but that was

cool. Cause that was kind of... a bit of a

[Jeremy]: passion of ours as well because

we were following independent game developers

[Jeremy]: as they did a 48-hour game

jam. And the winners of the game jam went out

[Jeremy]: to LA to IndieCade to network

with big brands. And one of them ended up meeting

[Jeremy]: with Oculus and that kind

of... It was pretty cool. So it was cool to

[Jeremy]: tell that story kind of as

it evolved in a more documentarian filmmaking

[Jeremy]: style rather than the narrative style.

[Scott]: And a benefit of that project, the Game

[Scott]: Jam, the movie documentary.

One of our producers, Ben Reichert, was a professor

[Scott]: at the institution where we

filmed the majority of that Game Jam, which

[Scott]: is where and how we met you,

Paul. So it all came full circle, man. Like

[Scott]: every project you end up finding,

it leads to something bigger and better, at

[Scott]: least. That's always been

our experience.

[Paul DeNigris]: Absolutely. I mean, a big theme

with successful independent filmmakers is finding

[Paul DeNigris]: your tribe, right? Finding

the like-minded individuals who are going to

[Paul DeNigris]: go on the crazy journey with

you to make something that you individually

[Paul DeNigris]: might not have been able to

achieve, right? So yeah, that's very cool.

[Paul DeNigris]: And I remember becoming aware

of you guys with Game Jam and being very interested

[Paul DeNigris]: in what you were doing and

then seeing Show No Mercy and being like, all

[Paul DeNigris]: right, these guys. They got

it going on. They're leveraging all of this

[Paul DeNigris]: stuff to make some really cool

shit. So yeah, at that point, my team and I,

[Paul DeNigris]: we were all in to work with

you guys. So give us the back of the Blu-ray

[Paul DeNigris]: cover synopsis of Max Reload.

[Scott]: Yeah, so Max Reload, the Blu-ray

synopsis, right? Small town video game store

[Scott]: clerk accidentally unleashes

the forces of evil from a cursed Colecovision game.

[Max]: I know it sounds nuts.

[Max]: I mean, I've been wanting to play

this game since I could hold a controller.

[Eugene]: I knew he'd be back.

[Eugene]: I just had no idea

there were no game cartridges left.

[Eugene]: I knew it was only a matter of time before

the Harbinger found his one player,

[Eugene]: the one man capable of truly unlocking...

[Reggie]: My boy! The chosen one!

[Eugene]: Uhh... Chosen pawn, pawn, chosen pawn.

[Eugene]: And we're not even sure.

[Eugene]: Maybe.

[Chuck]: Unless the store is on fire this weekend.

[Chuck]: I am not to be

bothered when I'm jacked in.

[Scott]: And this game was kind of an urban legend,

much like Polybius or some

[Scott]: of these games that if you're

really into gaming and nerd culture. are the

[Scott]: things that should not be

or the things that almost like ET the game

[Scott]: was kind of something we drift on...

[Jeremy]: It was so bad they destroyed every copy.

[Scott]: Yeah! We took a lot of inspiration

from like actual video game, real world lore.

[Scott]: And we said, well, what if

we do something kind of like Last Starfighter

[Scott]: meets Tron meets ridiculous

like Knights of Badassdom kind of absurd comedy

[Scott]: and culture and infused it

all together? And we did. And we did against

[Scott]: all odds we did with a lot

of help from yourself and your team, many

[Scott]: others. We pulled this little

indie film off for a song and a pittance and

[Scott]: did it against numerous odds

in how many days of shooting?

[Jeremy]: Ultimately 23, I think.

[Scott]: 23 all overnight

shots with the ridiculous and absurd 500 plus

[Scott]: VFX shots written in for an

indie film that had no budget. Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: And that's just the VFX that

my team and I touched. There was more beyond

[Paul DeNigris]: that, like the game imagery

and stuff, which we'll touch on. My next question

[Paul DeNigris]: was gonna be, what possessed

you to make a movie this ambitious as your first feature?

But you sort of answered that already. It seemed

[Paul DeNigris]: like the inevitable direction

that you were going, through all the projects

[Paul DeNigris]: that led you there.

[Jeremy]: Yeah, we just we can't we

can't do anything small. I mean, we start writing

[Jeremy]: something and then, you know, it's just...

[Scott]: We have this conversation all

[Scott]: the time. Like, there's

something wrong with us in our approach. And

[Scott]: and the funny thing is, man,

like blessing and curse, the capability and

[Scott]: the naivete mixed with stubbornness

and then the ability, like you said, to bring

[Scott]: together a very skilled. and

much larger tribe than the two of us to actually

[Scott]: have the technicians and the

craftsmen and the artists, for some reason

[Scott]: they jump on board and they

see the vision and help us bring it across

[Scott]: the finish line. Like looking

back over what ended up becoming a two year,

[Scott]: two and a half year process

of our life, dude, if you'd shown us that roadmap

[Scott]: when we started making the

film, I would've been like, nope, I'm out.

[Scott]: Like my wife would've been

like, yeah, you're out. But no, she was super

[Scott]: supportive the whole time.

But it was like... It's insanity when you look

[Scott]: at the amount of challenges,

hurdles, um, not just technically, but you're,

[Scott]: dude, you're checking your

own sanity. Like nightly, I remember there's

[Scott]: nights that I called Jeremy.

I was like, dude, what have we gotten ourselves into?

[Jeremy]: What if we show up sick tomorrow?

[Scott]: Hey Paul, you're up.

[Paul DeNigris]: Hahaha

[Scott]: I don't know if I answered the question, but yeah, a lot of, a lot of things to say

[Paul DeNigris]: No, that did answer the question.

I mean, you guys are obviously very ambitious

[Paul DeNigris]: and have a vision. And I think

that's what the people like Martin Kove and

[Paul DeNigris]: Greg Grunberg and all of the

actors that you brought on board, and then

[Paul DeNigris]: all of the crew and the behind

the scenes talent, the below the line talent that

[Paul DeNigris]: you brought on board. We all

saw the ambition. We all saw the reaching for,

[Paul DeNigris]: metaphorically reaching for

the stars and doing something that was really

[Paul DeNigris]: unexpected in the indie film

space, right?

[Jeremy]: I think there's a lot of gusto as well of

like, you know, like,

[Scott]: I like that word...

[Jeremy]: you know, it's like, if they can

do it, we can do it. It was, there was a lot

[Jeremy]: of like, you know, why not?

Why, why shouldn't we be able to do this? Why

[Jeremy]: can't people do this? Let's

prove them. Right. There was a lot of that,

[Jeremy]: just like, you know, let's,

let's do this and show people that it's a reality.

[Jeremy]: Um, I think we learned a lot

that, uh, that we were humbled many times,

[Jeremy]: but, yeah, um, through that

process of refinement. you know, I think that

[Jeremy]: was all a positive experience.

[Scott]: And that's kind of like the indie spirit, dude.

[Scott]: Sure. It was a union film,

right? We had, it was all union actors, we

[Scott]: had to go through SAG and

all that stuff, but it was still, I mean, it

[Scott]: was on the very cusp of what

would qualify for a, you know, ULB. Ultra low

[Scott]: budget. Ultra low budget indie,

and we wanted to make a film that didn't feel

[Scott]: like that. We wanted it to

feel like it had gone through a studio of some

[Scott]: sort, right? And... If it

wasn't for having that mindset, that indie

[Scott]: mindset, all of those moments

where like, well, no, you can't do it that way

[Scott]: for well, for a number of

reasons because you got 10 different people

[Scott]: looking over your shoulder

and, you know, no one's willing to do it that

[Scott]: way. That was not the case

on Max. Everyone's like, yeah, okay. We see

[Scott]: what you wrote on the page.

How can, how could that look? And that was

[Scott]: every step of the way.

[Paul DeNigris]: So what were some of the creative

touchstones for the film? I always look at it as being

[Paul DeNigris]: kind of a throwback to the

movies that we grew up on, right?

[Jeremy]: Absolutely.

[Paul DeNigris]: In the eighties, it's got very

much a kind of a Ghostbusters vibe in a way, where it's comedy, sci-fi, horror, action,

[Paul DeNigris]: and it thrives on the characters

and their interaction, not just on the effects,

[Paul DeNigris]: but oh yeah, the effects are

also really cool. And I know you guys had an

[Paul DeNigris]: experience where you brushed

up against Ernest Cline and Ready Player One.

[Paul DeNigris]: Can you just talk about that

a little bit?

[Jeremy]: Yeah, yeah. Um, you know,

it's like always just reaching as far as possible,

[Jeremy]: right? Like never taking no

for an answer and just saying, what if, you

[Jeremy]: know, that's how we reached

out to Kevin Smith. And we did a very similar

[Jeremy]: thing for Ernest Klein. We,

we sat on a couch and we made a video appealing

[Jeremy]: to his nerd side, essentially.

And saying, Hey, we're doing this thing. Um,

[Jeremy]: it's very inspired by some

of your work and we respect the hell out of you.

[Jeremy]: And if you could help us promote

this in any way and or give feedback in any

[Jeremy]: way, you know, we would be

honored to, you know, just even be considered

[Jeremy]: by your time.

[Scott]: Yeah. And we'd run into him at a book signing that Arizona

[Scott]: State University hosted and

we were big fans of Ready Player One. And we

[Scott]: went down there and he gave

a talk and it was before, I mean, he actually

[Scott]: had announced at that reading

that he was doing the film with Spielberg and

[Scott]: they were actually through

Arizona visiting Spielberg's childhood home.

[Scott]: It hadn't hit mainstream news

yet, but they did a little walkthrough, get

[Scott]: your book signed at the end.

Right. And everyone's getting kind of ushered

[Scott]: through by the handler. They're

like, you know, we got 200 people plus here.

[Scott]: You got to keep moving the

line along. But we snagged the opportunity

[Scott]: for 30 seconds and hey, man,

we've got this mock up poster we did for the

[Scott]: film. We did this little arcade

short film called Show No Mercy with the guy

[Scott]: from Karate Kid, Martin Kove.

I'm sure you know, he's like, oh, yeah. So

[Scott]: we're working on this new

thing. Is there a chance we could reach out

[Scott]: in the future? And he's like,

yeah. So we sent him that and he loved it.

[Scott]: And we reminded him that we

met him at the book signing, which helped.

[Scott]: And yeah, man, it was a shooting your

shot, so to speak. Yeah. You see the opportunity, take it.

[Jeremy]: Yeah. And then like you

mentioned, you know, films from our childhood,

[Jeremy]: we wanted this to feel like

an E.T., a Goonies, The Last Starfighter, Ghostbusters.

[Jeremy]: You know, we shot it on anamorphic

lenses, which... obviously we shot on RED, but

[Jeremy]: we didn't want it to feel

like the super overly sharp, overly, you know,

[Jeremy]: sanitized movie. We want it

to feel like. there was character, you know,

[Jeremy]: there might be a shot that's

not super stabilized, you know, show that a

[Jeremy]: human being made this film,

right? And so that, yeah, we really wanted

[Jeremy]: it to feel like that. Like,

yeah, so you could relate to it more, whether

[Jeremy]: that worked or not, that was

the intention.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, I mean, the anamorphic

lenses that you guys shot on definitely evoked

[Paul DeNigris]: again, those 80s action sci-fi

movies. You know, you had those

[Paul DeNigris]: beautiful lens flares that

we, my team and I, had to replicate in some spots.

[Jeremy]: Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: And it was just like, yeah,

you see those images. And I immediately takes

[Paul DeNigris]: me back to being 14 and watching Ghostbusters for the first time. And those beautiful lens flares when

[Paul DeNigris]: they fire up the proton packs.

[Scott]: Yeah man. I just saw on a podcast

yesterday or on a video yesterday, a vlog.

[Scott]: They had the Ecto cruiser around New York.

[Jeremy]: Oh, yeah, that was a nice that video.

[Scott]: Yeah, Casey Neistat. Yep.

We got stoked on that. We actually did a mock

[Scott]: up poster with a concept artist

and we reference the original Ghostbusters

[Scott]: poster. I think it's one of

the ones where they had the proton packs. It's

[Scott]: from the back and they're

looking up at the tower, you know, where the

[Scott]: gatekeeper is and we're like,

dude, do that, but with the Max Reload characters,

[Scott]: that kind of style, that vibe.

Because if you think about how absurd the films

[Scott]: were in the 80s, the premises

were ridiculous, like Monster Squad - ridiculous!

[Scott]: Ghostbusters - ridiculous!

[Scott]: But it's that suspension of

disbelief that I think that generation was

[Scott]: willing. They were willing to

go on those rides. And that's kind of what

[Scott]: we hope for viewers of Max.

Just come on this ride, man, for two hours

[Scott]: and be absurd with us.

[Paul DeNigris]: How long were the various stages of the film's

[Paul DeNigris]: development, pre-production,

production, post? You kind of touched on production

[Paul DeNigris]: being very short, what'd you

say, 23 days?

[Scott]: Physical, yeah, physical production

was 23 nights, all overnights on those.

[Paul DeNigris]: So what was the pre-production

cycle like? How long did you guys spend from

[Paul DeNigris]: when you started writing the

script till cameras rolled and then we'll segue

[Paul DeNigris]: into post.

[Scott]: Yeah, so correct me if I'm

wrong, because your memory on timelines is

[Scott]: much better than mine typically.

I think overall from writing through pre-pro,

[Scott]: actually turning our office

at the time into a production office for Max as

[Scott]: a dedicated focus, it was about nine months.

[Jeremy]: Yeah, probably. It was pretty

[Jeremy]: fast. Yeah. Yeah, no more

than that, I think. You know, we've obviously

[Jeremy]: been percolating the idea

for quite a while. But as far as like starting

[Jeremy]: to sit down and put pen to

paper and yeah.

[Scott]: Yeah, I think we wrote the

[Scott]: script over about three months,

right? Um, multiple drafts, of course. And

[Scott]: then, and then we started,

uh, you know, raising money and doing that

[Scott]: from within our camp and talking

to creatives. And it came together fast, respectively

[Scott]: fast. If you compare it to

like a studio picture that could take 10 years

[Scott]: to get something going.

[Jeremy]: And during, like during the writing process, we were scouting

[Jeremy]: locations and we were talking

to... So yeah, I think we were doing a lot at

[Jeremy]: the same time.

[Paul DeNigris]: Right on, and then 23 nights

of filming, and then we jump into post.

[Paul DeNigris]: How long was post?

[Jeremy]: Post was hard, man, because

it's like, you spend all this time making this

[Jeremy]: thing or, you know, writing,

producing, pre-production, then you kill yourself

[Jeremy]: to make it. And then all of

a sudden you've got to edit this thing because

[Jeremy]: we edited it as well. And

you're still trying to make a living. So you're

[Jeremy]: trying to do side jobs here

and there. And man, the post, that was a slog.

[Jeremy]: Just like the edit, the rough

cuts, the tightening up and all that. I feel

[Jeremy]: like we were, I don't know.

I don't remember how long we were.

[Scott]: Through VFX?

[Jeremy]: Just the edit mostly, right?

[Scott]: Just the edit took...

[Jeremy]: Cause once we were mostly locked, it was VFX.

And I think we were still tweaking here and

[Jeremy]: there where we could, but.

[Scott]: Yeah, the edit alone due to some limitations...

[Jeremy]: It was at least six months, right?

[Scott]: That much RED footage that we were working

[Scott]: with on that drive. I think

it took about six months. Yeah, five to six

[Scott]: months to get a cut that we

were really happy with, of course, with temp

[Scott]: score and trying to get. you

know it to a place where our composer could

[Scott]: actually start scoring it,

Jesse. And like you know that was a great lesson

[Scott]: too is on a feature, especially

one with 500 VFX shots, you coached us beautifully.

[Scott]: We're real renegade and like,

you know, let's just try this shot and let's,

[Scott]: uh, let's try some effects

on it. No, no, no. You're locking everything

[Scott]: before you give it to your

effects team because they don't want to go

[Scott]: back and do 20 different versions

on different plates and everything else. So.

[Scott]: Yeah, man, it was a process.

Overall, it took over a year, a year and a

[Scott]: few months with effects,

to get a cut, a deliverable cut down a bit.

[Paul DeNigris]: Right, and then as far as the

visual effects component, my team and I, we

[Paul DeNigris]: were responsible for things

like screen comps, the energy weapons, the

[Paul DeNigris]: Nether creatures, the glowing

eyes, some miscellaneous cleanup and stuff,

[Scott]: Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: smoke, fire, red lightning,

things like that. But there was more beyond

[Paul DeNigris]: that, right? A lot of the movie

really was crafted in post in

[Jeremy]: Right.

[Paul DeNigris]: a way. It really truly was

the final rewrite.

[Jeremy]: There was a lot of, yeah,

I mean the entire intro is, you know, there's

[Jeremy]: a few live shots, but most

of the intro is CG and the gameplay footage,

[Jeremy]: right? And then a big flashback

is a complete like G.I. Joe animated sequence.

[Scott]: Yeah and then we had the pixel art as well. Overall,

we had, I think, six, five or six different

[Scott]: animation styles we worked

in throughout the entire film. And those were

[Scott]: all tributes to our childhood,

like side scroller, video game, pixel art,

[Scott]: like Paperboy and the NES

games and Sega games we grew up playing. And

[Scott]: then the G.I. Joe style, that

era of 2D. Yeah, well, it was just very flat

[Scott]: line drawn animation. Saturday

morning cartoon animation was another. And

[Scott]: then we had literal game developers

who were working on video games use 3D, Unreal

[Scott]: Engine and different softwares to make.

[Jeremy]: They basically built like a World

[Jeremy]: of Warcraft kind of clone game that’s...

[Scott]: ... using the cameras in the game making

[Scott]: software as cameras and Jeremy

sat down with them as the DP and was like,

[Scott]: okay let's try these angles

as we fly through this level you've created

[Scott]: and they're animating the

characters they made to our specs to

[Scott]: look like they're talking

[Jeremy]: Yeah, it was it was a challenge though because

[Jeremy]: you're communicating like

film language and then to a video game, you

[Jeremy]: know, like language and so

it was... There was a lot of challenges getting

[Jeremy]: the vision. Because this isn't

what they do. They don't make cut scenes for

[Jeremy]: a living. They make games

that are played by people, not you push a button

[Jeremy]: and it plays a sequence of clips.

[Scott]: That's usually a whole separate team.

[Jeremy]: So it was a challenge just

communicating and getting the right, just really

[Jeremy]: getting the right stuff. But

at the end they nailed it. And it was really

[Jeremy]: cool to see it all come together.

It was just, it's just another challenge you

[Jeremy]: don't anticipate. You're like,

oh, just this game scene, it's gonna be an

[Jeremy]: easy little. You know,

[Scott]: Dude, there is yeah, anything you write on that page,

[Scott]: someone has to bring to life.

You know that intimately Paul. And the littlest

[Scott]: thing can be, you know, hours

and hours in post replacing something in that

[Scott]: shot, that composition.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, and that whole sequence

where we're first introduced to Max and Lizzie

[Paul DeNigris]: and Reggie, and we're introduced

to Eugene, but we don't realize it right up

[Paul DeNigris]: front. That whole sequence,

it's happening on all these different levels,

[Paul DeNigris]: right? Because we're in the

game world, we're over their shoulders looking

[Paul DeNigris]: at their screens, we're seeing

their first person web camera as they're talking

[Paul DeNigris]: to each other, we're cutting

to their characters as if they're having a

[Paul DeNigris]: conversation. And it's all

very intricate and crafted. And I know you

[Paul DeNigris]: guys probably had, you know...

X number of frames that we possibly could use

[Paul DeNigris]: and one frame longer and the

game engine falls apart

[Paul DeNigris]: or doesn't work. And so you're having

to cut it all to the bone and make it all work.

[Paul DeNigris]: And I know there was a lot

of experimentation and seeing sequences like

[Paul DeNigris]: that where it was like, how

much do we see the game engine? How much do

[Paul DeNigris]: we spend on Max's face?

[Paul DeNigris]: How do we keep it moving from

shot to shot? Um, and keep the story moving

[Paul DeNigris]: forward and also not, you know,

show our ass when the game, when the game imagery

[Paul DeNigris]: doesn't work or the, uh, yeah,

whatever.

[Jeremy]: Right. Yeah, because the way that they had to do it, they didn't make like individual shots.

[Jeremy]: So I would get this file that

was like all the sequences in one file. And

[Jeremy]: the characters go from like

their T pose to like snap into this thing.

[Jeremy]: And the camera would like

snap here and then it would begin its sequence.

[Jeremy]: And then they would snap back

into like a T pose and the camera would snap.

[Jeremy]: So it was like trying to like

make sense of what on earth was going on.

[Scott]: Real surgery, man.

[Jeremy]: It was an interesting, it was fun. Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah. And then the animation

side of things, who was responsible for the

[Paul DeNigris]: cool 2D animated sequence?

Eugene's big origin story, if you will.

[Scott]: Yeah, so we had, so Dan Fusselman

worked with us. He was one of our, one of our

[Scott]: good buddies, you know, Dan,

who's a friend of yours as well. Amazing artist

[Scott]: and he helmed one of the animation

teams and they did most of the 2D style animations

[Scott]: and there was about four individuals

under Dan on that team who were just incredible

[Scott]: artists and they all handled

certain aspects of that pipeline. And then

[Scott]: we had...

[Jeremy]: The transitional...

[Scott]: So you're talking about Alexis?

[Jeremy]: Yeah, yeah, Alexis, I believe he's out of somewhere

[Scott & Jeremy]: out of the UK.

[Jeremy]: When did connect with him? You like found him somewhere.

[Scott]: Yeah, I saw on it

[Scott]: wasn't Kickstarter was some

project that he posted. And he

[Scott]: had teamed up with the one

of the game designers who did like the original

[Scott]: Shinobi games. And they were

doing some kind of a new project together that

[Scott]: was pixel art based. I was

like, I've never seen

[Jeremy]: Incredible pixel art.

[Scott]: pixel art like that before. And that’s the beauty

of the internet, man, and also independently spirited,

minded artists is you

[Scott]: can reach out to anybody nowadays

and find their Instagram handle or even big

[Scott]: directors man and just say

hey dude I love what you're doing here's kind

[Scott]: of what we have going on can

we chat and you'd be very surprised most of

[Scott]: the time a lot of them will

get back to you and say yeah man that sounds

[Scott]: cool let's talk.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, and the pixel art thing

came about, that was a late edition, right?

[Paul DeNigris]: The animated sequence

[Paul DeNigris]: and all the game, the gameplay

sequences, those were all baked into the script.

[Paul DeNigris]: You knew that those were going

to be necessary right up front.

[Scott]: Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: But the pixel art stuff came

about from conversations that you had in post

[Scott]: It was a good fix.

[Jeremy]: Yeah, there was... Yeah, exactly. Because...

[Scott]: We screwed up

[Jeremy]: Well, there was a lot

of like... like there was a lot of things

[Jeremy]: that we just couldn't do very

easily. A drone shot of a city as a as the FFS

[Jeremy]: van was driving. You know,

transitions where he's riding his

[Jeremy]: bike at night, right? We don't

have these... a crane with 18K’s to light the street,

[Jeremy]: right? Like, so how can we

keep a cool theme? And save money and that

[Scott]: Those transitions were mostly like

Max on his bike to a lot of them.

[Jeremy]:They were

[Jeremy]: they were taken from scene to scene.

[Scott]: Yeah. Well, yeah, we were thinking,

[Scott]: okay, you know, Max wears

a hoodie. We'll just get a double and throw

[Scott]: a hoodie on him and we'll

go. We'll pick up all this stuff later. We'll

[Scott]: film it all later. Well, you

know, seasons change. Time goes on. And this

[Scott]: is one of those cool instances

where it forced our hand in a creative way

[Scott]: to go: What's an alternative

option for this? What's a cool way to show Max?

[Jeremy]: Filmmaking is problem solving.

[Scott]: This dude lives in a video game in his head space.

[Scott]: The movie's literally about

them getting sucked into a game at a point.

[Scott]: So let's show them through

the lens of transition cutscenes. Stuff we

[Scott]: grew up, you know, when you're

playing a video game and they're trying to

[Scott]: weave a story together. Well,

that's exactly what those scenes are in our

[Scott]: film. So let's do it that way.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, and it dovetails really

well with the end where they get sucked into

[Paul DeNigris]: a game, but then it's... You

didn't CG animate that, right? You just filmed

[Paul DeNigris]: a game, but then it's... You

didn't CG animate that, right? You just filmed

[Paul DeNigris]: a game, but then it's... You

didn't CG animate that, right? You just filmed

[Paul DeNigris]: it. You art directed it and dressed them

in costumes and filmed it. And so the line

[Paul DeNigris]: between reality and game world

and Max's imagination and what he's really

[Paul DeNigris]: experiencing is constantly

being blurred, right? Like, literally from

[Paul DeNigris]: the first frame that we see him

[Jeremy]: Mm-hmm.

[Paul DeNigris]: after the ancient Egypt...

prologue, which of course these movies always

[Paul DeNigris]: start in ancient Mesopotamia... or, you

[Paul DeNigris]: know, just something

[Paul DeNigris]: like that. Right. I always,

I always wanted the opening title, you know,

[Paul DeNigris]: when we see that shot of the

pyramid to be like ancient Egypt. Duh.

[Scott]: We've seen this before.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah. And that was a fun sequence,

[Paul DeNigris]: transitioning into that amazing

[Paul DeNigris]: pyramid interior set that was

an absolute blast to film on.

[Paul DeNigris]: pyramid interior set that was

an absolute blast to film on.

[Paul DeNigris]: And then all the work there.

And then that holographic game table, that

[Paul DeNigris]: game table gave us quite a

challenge in post

[Jeremy]: That was challenging. Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: game table gave us quite a

challenge in post

[Jeremy]: That was challenging. Yeah.

[Scott]: Determining the look for that

man. It took a couple iterations and then you

[Scott]: nailed it and it was, uh,

yeah, it was, it was so again, so loosely written

[Scott]: on the page, you know, like

one slug line on a script can be like an astral

[Scott]: projection on top of a marble

table. Okay, cool. But what does that really

[Scott]: look like? Well, that can

take a few iterations.

[Paul DeNigris]: Right, right. Yeah. So we had,

we had quite a bit of a look dev that we had

[Paul DeNigris]: to do on that. Because you

guys had ideas about what you wanted it to

[Paul DeNigris]: look like. I had ideas and

we were trying to kind of meet in the middle

[Paul DeNigris]: and figure out what is, what

does quote unquote galactic chess look like?

[Paul DeNigris]: What, what is, what does it

look like that this, you know, Nether creature,

[Paul DeNigris]: the, the game master

[Paul DeNigris]: creature, you know, what is,

what is it that he would play? It's not chess

[Paul DeNigris]: because that's too much of

a cliche, you know, the, The Seventh Seal,

[Paul DeNigris]: Max Von Sydow...

[Paul DeNigris]: you know, that, that kind of

thing, but it's still same sort of concept

[Paul DeNigris]: they're playing for. They're

playing for fate, the fate of the village,

[Paul DeNigris]: the fate of

[Scott]: Exactly.

[Paul DeNigris]: the gamer, but it has to be

something that, you know, we can understand

[Paul DeNigris]: without... with no exposition

about how the rules work. It has to be completely

[Paul DeNigris]: visual. It has to obviously

be a game that has rules that are internally

[Paul DeNigris]: consistent. But oh yeah, the

actor is just sort of randomly moving this piece

[Paul DeNigris]: around this blank piece of

plexiglass and then we have to fill it out after this

[Scott]: It's a scene too, that was MOS,

like there's no dialogue. No one's telling

[Scott]: you, yes, we're gonna duel

now and play this game for the fate of the universe.

[Scott]: No, it was just silent with

looks between the actors, which they did brilliantly.

[Scott]: And then you coming up with

that visual, the graphic representation where

[Scott]: you can clearly tell, okay,

cool, there are pieces that are overtaking

[Scott]: and there's connective tissue

between these moves. And clearly they're playing

[Scott]: some form of, like you said,

galactic chess. It worked out, man. It was

[Scott]: a struggle, but it turned

out great.

[Paul DeNigris]: So that was one that took a

lot of look dev. The titular Nether Blasters,

[Paul DeNigris]: I have one of them over here

[Paul DeNigris]: on my shelf that you guys gave me.

[Scott]: From the set right there.

Yeah, man,

[Paul DeNigris]: From the set,

[Scott]: one of the the real ones.

[Paul DeNigris]: one of Eugene's actual screen used blasters. It's....

[Scott]: That's right. That's no replica Paul, that’s the OG Blaster

[Paul DeNigris]: Indeed, screen used and all

of that. But it took us a while to figure that

[Paul DeNigris]: out, to figure out what that looked like and how the blasters moved and all the different little elements of sparks and corkscrew, you know, electrons and all of that

[Paul DeNigris]: sort of stuff. You want to

talk about a little bit about, you know, sort

[Paul DeNigris]: of the inspiration there and

what we were after?

[Jeremy]: Yeah, it's kind of like a

Ghostbusters-esque, you know, I think that

[Jeremy]: was probably the closest comp

that we were thinking about that would look

[Jeremy]: like because it's ultraviolet...

[Scott]: That's my favorite!

[Jeremy]: white light or whatever

[Jeremy]: he says, spectral.

[Scott]: The inside joke was in that was in the dialogue right

[Scott]: there was like, again, going

back to absurdity and you know, in Ghostbusters,

[Scott]: they build up those characters

to be ultra brilliant, you know, particle physicists

[Scott]: and okay, it's kind of plausible

these dudes, they've got a nuclear reactor

[Scott]: in the basement of a fire

station. Well, the funny turning on its head

[Scott]: thing is we've got this ultra

brilliant game designer, who we never fully

[Scott]: explained like how we became,

you know, an energy weapon expert. And even

[Scott]: he kind of doesn't really

know clearly through his description of shit

[Scott]: that doesn't make any sense.

But we just say, again, go with us on this

[Scott]: ride. He's going to give these

kids a bunch of these weapons that are somehow

[Scott]: able to disrupt the evil Nether.

And dude, down to the color schemes too, that

[Scott]: we had talked about with you,

that was another throwback to kind of cartoons

[Scott]: of the 80s, like GI Joe, Transformers,

the bad guys, and you know, even looking at

[Scott]: Star Wars, red, you know,

they're always shooting red laser beams, the

[Scott]: good guys are shooting blue

or green. And so we kind of worked a little

[Scott]: bit of that into the approach

to tipping our hat to the genres we love growing

[Scott]: up when it came to the Nether

blasters.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, because we had

then established early on that the Nether was

[Paul DeNigris]: going to be red and you guys

did a lot of red accent lighting and stuff

[Paul DeNigris]: on set whenever Nether energy

was involved. So yeah, we had set that tone

[Paul DeNigris]: right up front during production.

You guys used those Quasar lights to do red

[Paul DeNigris]: accents on things whenever

Nether creatures were visible, like the Nether

[Paul DeNigris]: Cragon, which we'll talk about

in a second. And when Reggie, when we first

[Paul DeNigris]: see the Nether Blaster guns

in action, Reggie getting zapped and the green

[Paul DeNigris]: eyes, you know, you're doing,

you did all those beautiful green accents with

[Paul DeNigris]: the lighting and that was a

really excellent case of we thought that out

[Paul DeNigris]: ahead of time,

[Paul DeNigris]: you know. Dan and I shared,

Dan Fusselman and I shared visual effects supervisor

[Paul DeNigris]: duties. So when I wasn't on

set, he was. Um, and. You know, we talked through

[Paul DeNigris]: that, that anytime we were

doing any sort of energy weapons, you know,

[Paul DeNigris]: energy creatures, whatever

that the, that you guys were going to help

[Paul DeNigris]: us a lot just by simply flicking

on a light,

[Paul DeNigris]: you know, and that really sells

the reality of, yeah, there's this green energy thing

flying across the room and it's creating shadows

[Paul DeNigris]: and highlights on. you know,

all the chrome and stuff in the video games

[Scott]: All that motivated lighting

[Jeremy]: Right. Yeah. Our gaffer Jacen Sievers with a green two foot Quasar on a stick and he was

[Jeremy]: running by as if that's where

the, you know, the light was going.

[Scott]: Simulating the contrail or the trail

of energy. Yeah.

[Scott]: Dude, Quasar Science came through

huge on this picture for us, man.

[Jeremy]: Tons of gear for us to use, which was phenomenal.

You know, for an indie to hit them up and say,

[Jeremy]: hey, this is what we're doing...

[Jeremy]: That’s amazing. Especially in like

the film industry, that does not happen. People

[Jeremy]: do not give you a free sandwich,

ever. Because they know you're gonna buy it,

[Jeremy]: you're gonna rent it, you

need it. There's no other option. So for them

[Jeremy]: to support us like that.

[Scott]: Well, I think it's because they knew we were indie

[Scott]: and we were starving and we

needed the sandwich. So they're like, all right,

[Scott]: you're not a big studio. We'll

throw you a bone here.

[Jeremy]: It seems like the people

[Jeremy]: that run that organization

are very similar to us. And I think they care

[Jeremy]: and their heart is where ours

is. And so it was cool for them to throw us

[Jeremy]: a bone like that. That helped a ton.

[Paul DeNigris]: Obviously the Nether creatures were another

big challenge, right? And we had to keep them

[Paul DeNigris]: consistent with the game art,

[Paul DeNigris]: right? So we established early

on what the Nether Specters and the Nether

[Paul DeNigris]: Cragon look like in the game

world. And then you wanted them to be in our

[Paul DeNigris]: real world. And...

[Paul DeNigris]: You guys made the smart choice

that most of the time the Nether Specters would

[Paul DeNigris]: just manifest as glowing red

eyes, right? So we weren't doing full CG photorealistic

[Paul DeNigris]: just manifest as glowing red

eyes, right? So we weren't doing full CG photorealistic

[Paul DeNigris]: characters because that's a

budget breaker. That's something that an indie

[Paul DeNigris]: film is just not going to be

able to pull off. And certainly not the amount

[Paul DeNigris]: of Nether possessed people

that you wanted on screen. I mean, you had

[Paul DeNigris]: three main characters who are

Nether possessed... Four, really, if you count

[Paul DeNigris]: the man in black, the Suited

Man, as he was called in the script.

[Scott]: Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah. And to have them as being

motion captured or just hand animated CG creatures,

[Paul DeNigris]: it just wasn't going to happen

at that budget level. So the smart choice was,

[Paul DeNigris]: well, when the Nether is in

somebody, they manifest as glowing red eyes.

[Paul DeNigris]: ton of glowing red eyes.

[Scott]: Kind of a possession.

[Paul DeNigris]: And that was probably the bulk

of our comps, I would say, maybe more than,

[Paul DeNigris]: probably more than a third

of our comps were glowing red eyes. And we

[Paul DeNigris]: spent a lot of time

[Jeremy]: Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: on look dev on that. You know,

[Jeremy]: It's tough because

[Paul DeNigris]: we, picked...

[Jeremy]: the eyes are the window to

the soul, you know, and when you're messing

[Jeremy]: with the eyes, it's very easy

for it to look weird, uncanny, off. And yeah,

[Jeremy]: once we dialed it in, I think

you've absolutely nailed it. So it was cool

[Jeremy]: to see that come to life.

[Scott]: Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, and we spent a bunch

of iterations on it, like trying to figure

[Paul DeNigris]: out, you know, what did Seth

and his crew look like as the mini bosses who

[Paul DeNigris]: had to have a little bit more

character. We had

[Scott]: Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: to get a little more malice

and a little more intent out of their eyes.

[Paul DeNigris]: Whereas like when Reggie is

possessed or when the just, you know, rando's

[Paul DeNigris]: walking on the street, I'm

one of the rando's.

[Scott]: You had a little cameo in

there, man. That's right, with your team

[Paul DeNigris]: You know, or the like the students

at the school when they when they waged their

[Paul DeNigris]: final assault on the servers

at the end of the movie, you know, they had

[Paul DeNigris]: to be more like the possessed

drones with no window into the soul, right?

[Paul DeNigris]: So there were definitely a

couple of different key looks and the Suited

[Paul DeNigris]: Man definitely had to have

his own his own mojo going on with his eyes.

[Scott]: Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: So it wasn't it wasn't just

a one size fits all solution. It really, you

[Paul DeNigris]: know, we had to kind of build

a system for it and I built essentially

[Paul DeNigris]: an eye rig for my team. So

you could kind of like dial, I want more pupil.

[Paul DeNigris]: I want less pupil. I want more

glow, less glow. It needs to be redder. It

[Paul DeNigris]: needs to be pinker. You know,

we could kind of finesse that from shot to shot

[Paul DeNigris]: And yeah, and that was a lot

of the early stages. You know, like the first

[Paul DeNigris]: maybe four weeks of post, of

VFX was, let's do all this look dev. Blasters,

[Paul DeNigris]: eyes. the galactic chess, figure

all that out. And then that's not even counting,

[Paul DeNigris]: all of the different screen

art. Every time they're looking at a computer,

[Paul DeNigris]: every time they're playing

a game, every time they're talking to each

[Paul DeNigris]: other on a webcam, those are

generally green screen, green displays on monitors.

[Paul DeNigris]: So there was a ton of that

work. Yeah,

[Scott]: Yes, there was.

[Paul DeNigris]: yeah. Of course, somebody decided

to have a green chair.

[Paul DeNigris]: on set for a lot of those.

[Scott]: That's bad. I know. I don't

know. I don't know where our VFX supervisor

[Scott]: was on that call. That's wild

because

[Paul DeNigris]: Hmm.

[Scott & Jeremy]: green, green chair

[Scott & Jeremy]: green screens.

[Paul DeNigris]: he must not have been there

that day.

[Scott]: You raise like a really cool

point too, though...

[Scott]: The cool thing for us was

like collaborating with you and

[Scott]: your team. And you being the

point man, that specifically we could share

[Scott]: a vision with and say, hey

man, here's kind of what we're going for, or

[Scott]: hey, we don't exactly know

what we want this to look like, but here's

[Scott]: some inspiration. What do

you think? And you’d throw back awesome ideas.

[Scott]: And I remember you jogged

my memory there. The whole thing with the eyes,

[Scott]: it was a very interesting

conversation because at one point I think we'd

[Scott]: envisioned after Seth and

the mini boss, his trio of bad guys, essentially

[Scott]: the mini boss kids who were

kind of the antagonists against Max and his

[Scott]: crew. We're like, yeah, after

they get possessed, you know, they have red

[Scott]: eyes the whole movie. Like

they're like demonically possessed. But then

[Scott]: we had this conversation with

you and based on the looks and the process,

[Scott]: you don't wanna steal the

window of the soul, like you said, from an

[Scott]: actor too, because so much

performance like Lukas Gage and those guys

[Scott]: just gave such good looks.

You cover up that with the glowing red eyes

[Scott]: the entire time, you're stealing

something from that performance, I think we

[Scott]: realized. So we're like, all

right, this possession is inside them. The

[Scott]: manifestation of it visually

is a little more transient. And it also, independently

[Scott]: minded again, at a point we

had this discussion and it was like, yeah,

[Scott]: it's also gonna save time

and money. So let's give them that better performance

[Scott]: moment. Let's let them have

those eyes.

[Jeremy]: And when those eyes come out, it

[Jeremy]: It means something. Yeah. It's

the intensity of that scene happens far more

[Scott]: Yeah. Absolutely. And

that whole process was a treat, man, especially.

[Scott]: working with you and having

you communicate options and being super receptive

[Scott]: to everything we brought to

the table, it brought better out of some of

[Scott]: those possibilities.

[Paul DeNigris]: I think it was a happy accident. There's one

[Paul DeNigris]: part where Seth is right up

in Eugene's face. You know, Eugene is sort

[Paul DeNigris]: of cowed on the ground and

[Scott]: He's leaning over him

[Paul DeNigris]: Seth is leaning over him. And

I don't remember if it happened by accident

[Paul DeNigris]: or it was something that we,

that my team internally decided to try. But

[Paul DeNigris]: there's one part where he gets

really intense and we decided let's make the

[Paul DeNigris]: eyes even brighter

[Paul DeNigris]: and flare up more and we were, manually painting in light on Eugene's face.

[Paul DeNigris]: So that it was as if the light

was coming out of

[Scott & Jeremy]: Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: Seth's eyes, like beams, and

hitting, hitting Eugene on the face. And we

[Paul DeNigris]: were like, let's, let's try

and let's hit this. When when Lukas hits this

[Paul DeNigris]: word, let's make those eyes

just like flare out. And, and I think it was

[Paul DeNigris]: like a, let's try it and see

and we liked it. And we pitched to you and

[Paul DeNigris]: you were like, Oh, my god,

this is the coolest. And so

[Paul DeNigris]: we then selectively found spots

for Seth and for the Suited Man, where we would

[Paul DeNigris]: do that sort of ramp up to

accentuate, almost as if the actor had control

[Jeremy]: Sure, absolutely.

[Paul DeNigris]: over that as part of their

body language. Yeah.

[Scott]: Yeah, yeah. That's the best

example of effects well done for me man is

[Scott]: that kind of, I mean of course

is the razzle dazzle. We're all fans of Marvel

[Scott]: films and all the wild sci

fi stuff we love but performance enhancing

[Scott]: moments like that where it's

like, that's just a nice little touch, a little

[Scott]: enhancement, a little flare.

[Jeremy]: Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's all

about performance and story, right? When you

[Paul DeNigris]: when you're making an indie,

I mean, theoretically, when you're making any

[Paul DeNigris]: film, but when you're making

an indie where every dollar has to count. Every

[Paul DeNigris]: pixel that you're pushing needs

to be for a reason.

[Paul DeNigris]: Every pixel that's being manipulated

on screen needs to be for a reason. And it

[Paul DeNigris]: was always to help you guys

tell the story. And it was always to improve

[Paul DeNigris]: the performance, to motivate

the drama, to, you know, so that when when

[Paul DeNigris]: Max and crew are reacting to

something, what they're reacting to is legit

[Paul DeNigris]: and it feels tactile and feels

like it's in the space. To go back to our Nether

[Paul DeNigris]: and it feels tactile and feels

like it's in the space. To go back to our Nether

[Paul DeNigris]: creatures, the other choice

that we made early on, again, to try and avoid

[Paul DeNigris]: doing fully photoreal CG creatures

was that in our plane, the creatures manifest

[Paul DeNigris]: as energy. Right. And so we

ended up being able to leverage the game engine

[Paul DeNigris]: assets. So your game art designers

turned over their rigs to us

[Paul DeNigris]: and then we were able to use that to

[Paul DeNigris]: drive a particle sim. So they

became made out of, you know,

[Paul DeNigris]: ions or whatever that danced

around in the shape of the creature. And we

[Paul DeNigris]: didn't have to, you know, try

and create skin and subsurface scattering.

[Paul DeNigris]: And, you know. proper deformations

and try and do Gollum on an

[Paul DeNigris]: ultra low budget film and do

that for multiple creatures throughout the

[Paul DeNigris]: ultra low budget film and do

that for multiple creatures throughout the

[Paul DeNigris]: movie. In particular, the one

that I always point to

[Paul DeNigris]: as my biggest point of

pride is that reveal of the Nether Cragon

[Paul DeNigris]: when Seth comes walking in

with it on a leash

[Scott]: it's in super slow mo. Yeah,

lightning's going off in the background, highlighting

[Scott]: them from behind. And yeah,

dude, we geeked out to when you showed us that

[Scott]: particle sim, you know, look,

because huge Predator fan, you know, and it

[Scott]: was like, okay, cool. So these

things are kind of, they're breaching their

[Scott]: way from the game world into

real world. Well, what is that? What are games,

[Scott]: data and digital and energy?

And, and so that, you know, that representation

[Scott]: of it visually just worked.

But yeah, that shot in particular of the Nether

[Scott]: Cragon, dude. That was the

show style. It was a trailer moment. We saw

[Scott]: you putting that together

like that's going in the trailer for sure.

[Paul DeNigris]: That was a fun night on set. That was that

[Paul DeNigris]: was one of the nights that

I was able to hang with you guys through the

[Paul DeNigris]: through the entire shoot day.

And of course, I was geeking out talking to

[Paul DeNigris]: Greg Grunberg, right? heroes alias.

[Scott]: Oh, and there's Lin Shaye, come on.

[Paul DeNigris]: Oh, and Lin Shaye. Yeah, I

had a blast talking to them and getting to

[Paul DeNigris]: know them. And so that was

awesome. Like that's one of those pinch me

[Paul DeNigris]: moments. Like here's a dude

who's in Star Trek and Star Wars and all this

[Paul DeNigris]: other stuff. And he's just

like, you know, just bullshitting with me on the

couch in between takes.

[Scott]: He's a good dude, man.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah,

[Paul DeNigris]: pretty awesome

[Scott]: also a producer on this film, a star and a producer. Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah. Yeah, it was awesome.

And it was great to meet his son. His son played

[Paul DeNigris]: the younger version of his

character. And

[Scott]: Jakey!

[Paul DeNigris]: yeah, and that was a blast

just to see that and see how much he supported

[Paul DeNigris]: the film. But being on set

that night, one of the things we had discussed

[Paul DeNigris]: ahead of time was even though

the Cragon is made out of energy, it needs

[Paul DeNigris]: to feel dangerous. It needs

to feel like it can actually influence

[Paul DeNigris]: our world. We need it to attack

Steve. We needed to feel like Max and company

[Paul DeNigris]: are in danger when it's...

It comes into the garage. We need Eugene to,

[Paul DeNigris]: Eugene is scared witless out

of it at a certain point. We need to motivate

[Paul DeNigris]: that, right? It has to feel

dangerous and real. And we needed a reference,

[Paul DeNigris]: you know, like Jeremy needed

to know where to point the camera. Where's

[Paul DeNigris]: the thing's head?

[Paul DeNigris]: So we made this really ridiculous

puppet. It's just a green

[Paul DeNigris]: ball on a stick with two little

LED lights for where the eyes are supposed

[Paul DeNigris]: to be. And, you know, and the

S&M gimp collar on.

[Paul DeNigris]: bound by a chain. Yeah.

[Scott]: I can't tell how many people

wore that damn thing on set. It’s in like half

[Scott]: of the Behind the Scenes photos

from that night.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, it was a lot of fun.

And in that big reveal shot, Scott, I think

[Paul DeNigris]: you were the puppeteer for part of that,

for the big reveal.

So you come walking in the behind the scenes

[Scott]: Yeah, that's right.

[Paul DeNigris]: footage, you know, carrying

this thing and trying to evoke your badass

[Paul DeNigris]: self to give us some reference

for how the Cragon should move. And then I

[Paul DeNigris]: had to, of course, jump in.

Right? What's the point of being visual effects

[Paul DeNigris]: supervisor if you can't be ridiculous on set?

[Scott]: you killed it. Yeah, it was awesome.

We got to dig up that behind the scenes footage

[Paul DeNigris]: into the show here. But then the other

thing we did was we wanted the Cragon to charge

[Paul DeNigris]: down the hallway and knock pictures and stuff off

the wall. So, you know, production designer,

[Paul DeNigris]: Jennifer Nesbitt, she put up

all these pictures on the wall and then you

[Paul DeNigris]: guys just rolled a long time

and I went one by one and knocked things off

[Paul DeNigris]: the wall. And then we combined

all of that so that as it barrels down the

[Paul DeNigris]: hallway, pictures are flying

off and there's little sparks, little arcs

[Paul DeNigris]: of energy coming off and all

of that stuff. Again, to try and make it feel real.

[Scott]: It totally yeah it sold it

man and that was Jen's house too wasn't it?

[Scott]: Yeah it was. God bless her

she let us destroy her house for that

[Scott]: couple of days too. Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: Right. And then the last the

last bit that I love and it's just a it's such

[Paul DeNigris]: a simple thing when the when

the Cragon gets vaporized right by the what

[Paul DeNigris]: did you guys call it again?

He hits the button... the vortex.

[Jeremy]: Some... Vortex... Something Vortex.

[Scott]: It was a really long name. Yeah, it

[Scott]: was some kind of disruptor, some kind of EMP pulse type in theory. Yeah. I don't know

[Scott]: what it was.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, the EMP vortex, right?

So Max slaps that button and it zaps the

[Paul DeNigris]: mini bosses away and it vaporizes

the Cragon. We had the, so now the digital

[Paul DeNigris]: mini bosses away and it vaporizes

the Cragon. So now the digital

[Paul DeNigris]: Cragon is wearing a digital

collar that is a replica of the real Gimp collar

[Paul DeNigris]: that we had on set. And then

I think I begged you, I was like, please...

[Paul DeNigris]: just give me a shot of the collar hitting the floor.

[Paul DeNigris]: And you're like, all right,

if there's time, and I was like, come on, just

[Paul DeNigris]: put it on the floor and just

drop the color in the shot. And you did it

[Paul DeNigris]: and it's in the cut because

you see the thing vaporize and you see the

[Paul DeNigris]: digital color kind of fall

through it as it disappears and then you cut

[Paul DeNigris]: to the practical color falling

and there's little red wisps coming off of

[Paul DeNigris]: it. And the collars, they don't

really match. It's one of those like, if you

[Paul DeNigris]: really investigate

[Paul DeNigris]: the cut, yeah, it cuts from

this big to this big.

[Scott]: His neck was stretching it out.

[Paul DeNigris]: But it's... I mean, it's but

it makes it feel like that thing was really

[Paul DeNigris]: there. It really had a chain

around its neck. It really had this collar

[Paul DeNigris]: on and it all ties together.

It's just these stupid low budget little

[Paul DeNigris]: tricks, just like 60

[Paul DeNigris]: seconds. Jeremy, just give

me this shot, please.

[Scott]: gonna make all of our lives

easier. Just trust me. Yeah, and it did, man.

[Scott]: It sold it.

[Paul DeNigris]: what's... What's something

that you took away from Max Reload, from the

[Paul DeNigris]: VFX process in particular,

that has kind of changed the way you do things

[Paul DeNigris]: or maybe has influenced or

informed how you approach future projects or

[Paul DeNigris]: how you might tackle a future

film.. ahem, sequel.

[Jeremy]: Pre-production,

[Jeremy]: planning shots, you know,

planning everything. That's become a huge part

[Jeremy]: of it. You know, that's something

that we've heard, especially when you're running

[Jeremy]: a business, time is money.

And if you don't put in the time, you will

[Jeremy]: spend more money. So making

sure that we're planning more, making sure

[Jeremy]: that things are dialed in

more, having conversations about how things

[Jeremy]: will look, how they should

be shot, how to support the CG in camera. Practical

[Jeremy]: versus CG. Yeah. All that

stuff is heavily influenced how we've adjusted

[Jeremy]: and changed and grown.

[Scott]: I agree, man. Yeah, conversations are cheap, right?

[Scott]: But they can be very valuable.

You know, it's like having those pre-production

[Scott]: conversations with yourself

and talking with our team through exactly what

[Scott]: we want things to look like

and pull taking the time to pull references.

[Scott]: I think it's an easy trap

to fall into, particularly if you have a skilled

[Scott]: team to say that phrase that

everyone jokes about and everyone hates, oh,

[Scott]: we can fix it in post. And

the greatest wizards in the world, they can,

[Scott]: at great expense and at great

cost in terms of time. So, you know, don't

[Scott]: rest on the skill of your

team in that way, but leverage that time and

[Scott]: pre-pro if you've got it,

to communicate with your team and make sure

[Scott]: you're truly on the same page

and do pre-vis, man. Storyboards, even if

[Scott]: it's a napkin sketch, all

the way up through putting together cool look

[Scott]: books and textures. We do

all of that now, which I'm sure it makes you

[Scott]: happy to hear when we rope

you into the next, you know, feature, Paul,

[Scott]: those things will be in place

where we had some of those things on Max,

[Scott]: but certainly a lot of them

were like, ahh we’ll figure it out. We'll figure

[Scott]: it out after we shoot it.

We know we need to shoot so you can have it

[Scott]: as a canvas, but and you know,

[Jeremy]: Devil’s advocate. We wouldn't have made this

[Jeremy]: movie if we didn't have that

spirit. We would not have, because it's, it

[Jeremy]: takes a lot of work. it's

very daunting and you start to quickly realize

[Jeremy]: that you cannot actually do

what you had set out to do. But when you just

[Jeremy]: throw yourself in, you will

figure a way out. So the

[Jeremy]: devil’s advocate is the naivete

of going into this, that the world's our oyster

[Jeremy]: is the only reason we made this film.

[Scott]: Indie film spirit, man. If you let

[Scott]: the lawyers and accountants

approve everything before they let you do anything,

[Scott]: you'll never make anything.

But if you go into it like a knucklehead like

[Scott]: we did with a willing

team of badasses, something cool can come out

[Scott]: of it. That was the case with

Max.

[Paul DeNigris]: So planning, planning and pre-production,

but not so much that you paralyze yourself

[Paul DeNigris]: with planning.

[Scott]: Right. Well said.

[Paul DeNigris]: Yeah, I think that's the thing.

A lot of, the other thing you said was, when

[Paul DeNigris]: it's a business, you're burning

money, right? A lot of independent filmmakers

[Paul DeNigris]: don't necessarily, when they're

first getting started, they don't necessarily

[Paul DeNigris]: treat it like a business. They

treat it as art first and business second,

[Paul DeNigris]: and it's really, they're hand

in hand. One doesn't happen without the other.

[Paul DeNigris]: You know, everything moves

on time and money, time and money is always

[Paul DeNigris]: the enemy. And you have to

you have to respect that. And the only way

[Paul DeNigris]: to do that is to approach it

as a business. We may not all be making money

[Paul DeNigris]: on it. Right? It's an independent

film. It's ultra low budget. Nobody's getting

[Paul DeNigris]: rich at that budget level.

But at the same time, money is a finite resource,

[Paul DeNigris]: right?

[Scott]: Absolutely. Yeah, people aren't

going to show up when that money runs dry for

[Scott]: even with the most ambitious

artistic crew, you know, and when you're working

[Scott]: with OPM, man, other people's

money, you better damn well have good justification

[Scott]: for how you're spending it

and that time.

[Paul DeNigris]: Right on. So a young independent

filmmaker comes to you and says, I have this

[Paul DeNigris]: idea. I watched Max Reload

and I was inspired and I want to make a movie

[Paul DeNigris]: that relies heavily on VFX,

but I have no idea where to start. What do

[Paul DeNigris]: you tell them?

[Scott]: We just give them your card.

[Jeremy]: And then we tell them to not.

[Scott]: Don't do it!

[Scott]: No, I mean, it's a healthy

conversation.

[Jeremy]: Yeah, I mean, the thing is, we

[Jeremy]: had, I mean, both of us a

decade of experience before we even, you know,

[Jeremy]: it's like you get out of film

school and you're like, I'm the director. I

[Jeremy]: want to be the director. I

want to make movies. I want to make another

[Jeremy]: Star Trek movie. And it's

like, yeah, dude, no. Like, how about make

[Jeremy]: a narrative film that has

zero VFX and learn how to tell a story.

[Scott]: Dude, if I could go back and

have this conversation with us five years ago,

[Scott]: I'd be like, look, let's do

our Reservoir Dogs first before we go do, you

[Scott]: know, Ghostbusters on our dime.

[Jeremy]: Well, yeah, it's, you know, it's, um,

[Jeremy]: I always looked at it when

I went to film school as, okay, what can I,

[Jeremy]: what do I absolutely know

that I can do well? Good or well, right? There's

[Jeremy]: a lot of ideas that I have

that I'm way more passionate about, but I could

[Jeremy]: not pull them off, right?

It's going to be bad. So if I just continue

[Jeremy]: to stick with the things that

I can do well, I will learn enough and over

[Jeremy]: time I'll get to the thing

that I actually wanted to do in the first place.

[Scott]: Midget porn.

[Jeremy]: Obviously. Paul, I don't know

why you have this guy in your podcast.

[Scott]: We’re hitting that mark.

[Jeremy]: But no, you know,

[Paul DeNigris]: You just got me demonetized.

Thanks.

[Jeremy]: It's, it's baby steps, man.

I mean, everyone wants to make their best idea

[Jeremy]: first. And that's oftentimes

not going to pan out. You know, it's that's

[Jeremy]: just the reality because of,

of skill, time, money, many, many factors. Start

[Jeremy]: small and just perfect your

craft until you are at the point to where you

[Jeremy]: can really do that thing. You're extremely

passionate about.

[Scott]: Dude. It sounds trite,

[Scott]: we talk about this all

the time. We talk about it with our team who

[Scott]: a lot of them are very, they're

all very talented, but they're all younger.

[Scott]: For the most part on the content

creation side, it's like you got one of these

[Scott]: in your pocket. You got a

studio that we didn't grow up, none of us did,

[Scott]: having. And it's not about

the gear. It's not about having star power.

[Scott]: Show me what you can do with

that. If you can't show me something with that,

[Scott]: who's going to give you money

to make that big thing that's inside of your

[Scott]: head? Why should they? That's

a good question for every up and coming content

[Scott]: creator, right? Particularly

aspiring filmmakers.

[Paul DeNigris]: Great advice, great advice.

So where can people find Max Reload to watch?

[Paul DeNigris]: I know it's out in distribution

and lots of places, but where can they easily find it?

[Scott]: Yeah, man. It's on Amazon.

If you go through any of the Amazon channels

[Scott]: or if you have a subscription

to Prime, it's on there. You can get it through

[Scott]: Tubi, Peacock, Redbox, still

has it on the Redbox digital. It was in their

[Scott]: machines for a while, which

was a trip. I mean, who's using physical media

[Scott]: anymore, but some people were.

And it's on a number of other streaming platforms.

[Scott]: The only one that we didn't

sign a deal with was Netflix and pretty much

[Scott]: everywhere else. It's available, man.

[Paul DeNigris]: And is it available outside

the US?

[Jeremy]: Yeah, it's distributed, distributed

physically in Japan

[Scott]: Spain, Germany,

[Scott]: is coming up

[Jeremy]: and then Europe somewhere.

[Scott]: Europe, Taiwan. Yeah, the UK.

[Jeremy]: We have like a Japanese version

and a UK version, it’s pretty cool.

[Scott]: Dude those posters are rad.

[Paul DeNigris]: Where can people find out more about what you guys are up to?

[Jeremy]: Yeah. www.offensivegroup.com.

That's our website. That's the handle

[Jeremy]: for most of our Instagram stuff.

[Scott]: @offensivegroup.

[Jeremy]: We've some cool stuff coming up. We're trying to

[Jeremy]: bring more of the narrative,

um, storytelling to marketing in a, in a really

[Jeremy]: unique way. Um, so that's,

yeah, we've got some stuff in the works. We've

[Jeremy]: done some really cool things.

Some, some more narrative things, some more

[Jeremy]: action oriented things. We're

just trying to ramp that side up.

[Scott]: Heavy on

[Scott]: the sci-fi tactical action.

Shorter format content lets us experiment more.

[Scott]: So we're doing a lot of that.

And then there's Jeremy's OnlyFans.

[Jeremy]: It's OnlyFeet

[Jeremy]: though. So, you know.

[Jeremy]: It's actually, I'm working

on OnlyGrans. There's a lot of grandmas out there

[Scott]: OnlyGrans.

[Jeremy]: They make cookies, come on dude. Like it's like a cooking thing.

[Scott]: I'm sorry, Paul. This is what

[Paul DeNigris]: Alrighty.

[Scott]: you get. Dude, we haven't

seen you in long enough.

[Paul DeNigris]: All right. Well, with that,

I don't know. There's no way to follow that

[Paul DeNigris]: up. So I'm going to thank Scott

and Jeremy for being part of this episode.

[Paul DeNigris]: Love you guys. Loved working

[Scott]: Love you brother.

[Paul DeNigris]: on Max Reload. Can't wait to

do it again. Let's do that Max Reloaded sequel

[Paul DeNigris]: one of these days.

[Scott]: Let’s party, let’s party,

brother.

[Paul DeNigris]: Thanks so much for joining us

[Paul DeNigris]: on today's episode of the VFX for Indies

podcast.

[Paul DeNigris]: You can find transcripts, images

and other cool stuff at our website.

[Paul DeNigris]: VFXforIndies.com.

[Paul DeNigris]: If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe,

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[Paul DeNigris]: On behalf of everyone at Foxtrot X-Ray,

I'm chief pixel pusher

[Paul DeNigris]: Paul DeNigris and we all thank you so much

for your support of the show.

[Paul DeNigris]: See you next time.