Inside the VFX Process with Joe Russo and Chris LaMont

Join us as we pull back the curtain on the world of filmmaking, with the talented writer-producer duo, Joe Russo and Chris LaMont, as our guides. Imagine sharing a space with the pioneers behind the Bruce Willis action movie, Hard Kill and the spine-chilling Netflix horror, The Inheritance. The journey gets even more exciting as we traverse their career paths, delve into their successful partnership, and unravel the process that led them to triumph on the Blood List, a compilation of the year's best horror scripts, no less. It's a raw, unfiltered glimpse into Joe's transformation from a development executive to a creator, their on-set experiences, and much more.

Now, hold your breath as we switch gears and immerse ourselves in the world of visual effects. Like the pieces of a puzzle fitting seamlessly, Joe and Chris dissect the VFX process in their recent movie, The Au Pair Nightmare, and the subtle yet crucial role these effects play in the overall narrative. The duo underscores the importance of meticulous planning, the joy, and rigors of non-union production, and how seemingly small details could enhance or mar the visual story. Yes, we are talking about transforming a storefront for a film and the grueling task of cleanup VFX, with not just insights, but anecdotes from their personal experiences.

In the final leg of this riveting journey, we delve deeper into the role of visual effects supervisors, especially in horror films. Beyond the clapperboard, Joe and Chris impart valuable lessons from their experience on the anthology series Nightmare Cinema. The duo underscores the importance of early engagement with VFX supervisors, the significance of staying within budget constraints, and the potential of AI in visual effects. Furthermore, they highlight the importance of a symbiotic relationship between directors and VFX artists, bringing home the point that when this collaboration works, it's magic on screen. Prepare to be educated, entertained, and enlightened!

Take-Out: https://vimeo.com/9734622

The Au Pair Nightmare: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.ceb90f89-5071-2a61-89ff-83f097c0b800?autoplay=0&ref_=atv_cf_strg_wb

Midnight Clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXQhzY9fgY0

Nightmare Cinema: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.acb560ef-be74-2da5-6e85-d46fa3b3880a?ref=imdb_web&autoplay=1&ref_=imdbref_tt_wbr_fdv&tag=imdbtag_tt_wbr_fdv-20

From Script to Post: Inside the VFX Process with Joe Russo and Chris LaMont

Paul DeNigris: What do alien spiders, sadistic projectionists, nanny nightmares, and Bruce Willis have in common? Find out this week on the VFX for Indies podcast.

With me today are Joe Russo and Chris Lamont, a writer producer team that I've known for a number of years. They Recently wrote, and not so recently, wrote the Bruce Willis actioner Hard Kill. They wrote a movie called The Au Pair Nightmare that I was I was lucky enough to do some visual effects for.

And they have written the upcoming Netflix horror movie The Inheritance, among many other things that they will tell you about. Welcome to the show, gentlemen. Thank you, Paul.

Chris LaMont: It's a pleasure to be here.

Joe Russo: Hello, Paul.

Paul DeNigris: So I've known Chris for close to 20 years now. Chris was the founder of the Phoenix film festival.

So I know him through that. And if I haven't mentioned it before, I will say it many more times to come. The Phoenix film festival is my favorite film festival in the world. And I make sure that I participate in it. In some way, every single year, for example, Chris and I run a station at the in the big party tent every year during what's called kids day.

And it happens to be a big surprise happens to be about visual effects. We set up a big green screen and let the kids do their do their little skits on the green screen and send them home with a a composite of of themselves, with SpongeBob or something like that. So it's a lot of fun.

And Chris and I have collaborated on a lot of things. And then I've known Joe since he was a student of Chris's back at a Arizona state university for quite a while, Joe was never a student of mine. He was long gone from ASU before I started teaching there, but I have avidly followed his career since since he left ASU and moved out to Los Angeles.

I

Chris LaMont: have also followed that career.

Joe Russo: Unfortunately we're handcuffed together. Yes. My second

Chris LaMont: wife,

Joe Russo: he has to he has to follow along.

Paul DeNigris: nice. That's a great segue. Why don't you guys give, do a little introduction of yourselves and your, career highlights, both individually and as a partnership. Chris,

Chris LaMont: you want to go first?

Sure. I started making movies a long time ago when I was in fourth grade and very privileged to still be doing it today. Directed and written, directed a number of Way micro budget features as Paul mentioned that I did I did start the Phoenix Film Festival. I also produce a number of feature films that have gotten national international distribution.

I switched from writing, directing to producing, and now I'm working with Joe Russo here as a screenwriters. We're both in the WGA. And we've had a lot of success and we hope to continue doing that much, much more. Depending on what the market will bear and how much the producers and studios will bear us, I think is the best way to put that.

Joe Russo: Yeah Spoiler alert. I met Chris at Arizona state when he was my teacher. He was the youngest faculty member at the film school at the time. And I really

Chris LaMont: wasn't a film school to be honest.

Joe Russo: That's true. It was barely a film. Yeah.

Chris LaMont: I

Joe Russo: hadn't even officially started yet. The film school isn't officially yet.

And, Chris Chris is a polarizing figure with students because he gives them honest feedback and film students who are invincible and film school don't always like to hear that they're wrong. I was under the impression that feedback is good. Notes are good. I took the feedback he gave me on a short and I applied it and it ended up getting into a film festival.

So I was like, Oh, he gives good notes. So I continued to go back to him, even though that was the only class I ever had with Chris. I continue to go back to him to get feedback on my subsequent shorts that I made through school. We worked professionally for the first time together on a movie he produced where, I think it was a really challenging shoot.

And he and I bonded through that process. I brought a

Chris LaMont: few, a few, I brought a few ASU grads on and, Joe has always been a director. And so I said the best way to learn how to be a director is to be the assistant to the director. And so Joe is the assistant director on a feature.

And if you want to look it up on IMDb, you're more than happy to do that.

Joe Russo: To the director. Assistant to the director. Yes. There's a difference. Yes. And it was a great

Chris LaMont: experience for sure.

Joe Russo: So we basically bonded on that. And when I started to think about moving out to Los Angeles, I knew I needed some kind of a calling card and Chris and I collaborated on a short film called takeout which ended up playing at a bunch of festivals and won some awards.

And basically gave me. The ammunition I needed to help get me a job out in LA. So since then we've been, I worked as a development executive for a few years which is where I got my chops as a producer. And while I was doing that, Chris and I were quietly writing away at night.

Our first big success on the writing front was we set a project up with Will Smith's company. And that was when I was like, Maybe I should be focusing on this more than just something I do in the evenings with Chris. And so I left that development job and we proceeded to have a really nice little run where I was, it's a hard thing to transition.

From development executive to creator and especially in the

Chris LaMont: town, Joe, everyone knew Joe as an exec, and so suddenly he's walking around as a creative. Yeah. And everyone's I didn't know you could write Joe . And,

Joe Russo: And they didn't until, Chris and I landed an agent and manager.

And then we ended up getting on this thing called the blood list which is basically the. Best horror scripts of the year is voted on by execs around town. And we proceeded to go on a run where we got on that list three years in a row with three different scripts. Two of them have been produced now.

The third is set up with a producer. It's it helps transition me from being an exec to, a full on writer and, So that's when, we started selling things and things started getting made and we started getting hired to write stuff and suddenly we've got like a nice little body of work.

Chris LaMont: And I think the important thing that you can tell, and take with you all of the. Listeners and viewers out there is that, one of the reasons why there's been some success for Joe and myself is because of Joe's relationships that he's made throughout the years while he was a development exec.

It's so crucial to be networking when you are in this industry. It doesn't matter where you're at, what department you're in, what station you are, whether you're a veteran who's been making movies for years, or it's your first film or streaming project or TV series, or what, it doesn't matter. Even with short films that you're making on your own, it's all about networking and talking to people and getting your name out there.

The one thing I always remember is this idea that it's not, everyone says, it's not, what, it's who, it's more important. It's not who, it's who knows you. And so I think that was a real great. A real great thing to watch how Joe's networking has really helped to jumpstart a lot of the work that we've had and a lot of the sales that we've made and a lot of the works that's been created.

So I think

Joe Russo: I got really great advice before I moved to L. A. from a entrepreneur named Larry Sheffield. And he said, when you go out to L. A., try to meet two new people a week. Because if you meet two new people a week, which doesn't seem like a huge daunting thing by the end of the year, You've met over 100 new people, right?

And that was advice that I really took to heart. And once I moved up to being a development exec and I had an expense account, it became a lot easier to go meet two new people a week. But and Chris and I absolutely benefited from that. Our first screenplay sale truly came from a happenstance situation like that.

Someone I had met on a general meeting he and I partnered up on some projects. We went to Lionsgate for a meeting on one of those projects. And while we were in the lobby we bumped into the producer of the Saw franchise. And He happened to be neighbors with my friend. And as we're walking away Matt says to me, Gosh, I wish I had something that was like SAW to give to, to Mark over here.

And I said, it's really funny, Matt, like we actually just signed with the Gersh Agency off of a script that is SAW like. And he goes, really? And he turns around and across the lobby, he goes, Hey, Mark, he goes, yeah, Matt, I'm going to send you a script. It's really great. And then he goes, can't wait to read it.

Mark turns around or Matt turns around to me and goes, it better be good.

And that was how we sold our first screenplay. It was good. It was a

Chris LaMont: bloodless script too. So yeah,

Joe Russo: It wasn't a bloodless script then though. It hadn't even gone out to the market yet.

Chris LaMont: Oh, that's right. You're right. Yeah. Yeah. We

Joe Russo: got an early look at it and they liked it and they hemmed and hawed.

And then when it got on the blood list, they made an offer for it the next day. Cause they didn't want it to get scooped up by anybody else. But that, so yeah but it goes to show you, it was, I had a relationship with someone who had a relationship with another person who ended up having access to money and they bought the script from us,

Paul DeNigris: that's a great story. And you're right. It, this business is all about relationships. Most of the VFX work that I do now is, has come to me through a producer who I met. Because I handed somebody a business card at a party at the Phoenix film festival. And then my business card made the rounds and landed in the hands of a VFX producer who has become my partner.

And we've worked together for five years off of that one business card, right? It is a relation. It is a business of relationships. The other thing I wanted to to tag onto. You said Chris gives good notes. That's, Chris and I became friends because he saw my feature that I wrote and produced and directed and he said, there's something here, it's not good right now, but it's, there's, he was a little nicer than that, but just a little nicer.

Chris LaMont: I

Paul DeNigris: don't know why

Chris LaMont: anybody talks to me when you start

Paul DeNigris: He said there's something good in there if you're willing to sit with me I've got some ideas and we sat, we spent an afternoon, we chopped a half hour out of that movie and then it started getting into film festivals and it went into distribution and all of that.

And so Chris and I have been buds ever since. And that, to me illustrates one of the key takeaways that I've had in my career is. Notes are good, right? Notes are how we grow.

Joe Russo: Yeah. They

Paul DeNigris: can, they can hearing different perspectives are how we grow. They can be,

Joe Russo: it depends on who's giving them and but , yes.

Yeah. They can be good. You should be open to all notes. Yes. But you should also be discerning about how to implement that. I think that's all

Paul DeNigris: notes are an opportunity for growth. There you go. That's a better way to put it. They're good or bad. They're opportunities. I don't know if they're

Joe Russo: good, but they're an opportunity for growth.

Yeah. No I, it's funny. I, Chris has set me up with some folks to give notes to over the years as well. And they come back to him and they're like, Joe's so nice. Joe's so wonderful. Buh, And he's I don't get it. He's like, when I give people notes, they tell me I'm a jerk. He's what are you doing?

That's so different. I

Chris LaMont: have tooled. I have retooled the way that I do work with notes and I've really tried to emphasize the positive more, I think nurturing kind of way, as opposed to, we were, we

Joe Russo: were benefits of of the other. The other route but to our benefit. Yes,

Paul DeNigris: absolutely.

And I'm, and Chris, you're not alone. I'm sure tons and tons of my students over the years would say that that my, my notes were were hard to swallow. Again, the ones who took my notes are the ones that are working in the industry. The folks who wanted my feedback, who wanted to grow, they're the ones who are, 2d supervisors on Star Trek and 3d supervisors at Marvel and things like that.

They're the ones who are out there doing it because they learned early on notes are an opportunity for growth. And that's how you get better as a writer, as a visual effects artist, as a director, as an editor any creative technical position in this industry. If you get good notes that help you grow.

That help you see beyond your own ability, right? Because we don't know what we don't know, right? So we're only ever as good as our current knowledge and notes, thoughtful, constructive notes are always a good way to grow beyond your current limitations.

Chris LaMont: So now that, I just want to say one more thing real fast is that, I don't, the notes that when and it's great when you have a, a lot of a support system that gives you great feedback.

But the one thing that I always tell, my students and anyone that I'm mentoring anything like that is, is that you shouldn't ask, you don't want people to tell you how good your script is, because that's not going to help you. The most important thing is to tell me what's wrong with it, or how can I fix it in your opinion?

Because like you said that's how you grow. But more importantly, it's I don't need you to tell me that it's good. I know already. It's good. Or I wouldn't have made it like that, for you to be able to drill down what didn't work for you that to me is the most valuable thing and to be surrounded by people who are willing to give you that honest opinion, no matter how it's delivered with, by people that you respect who you trust.

To give you very objective notes because they just want to see the work get better. I think that's the most important thing. Totally agree.

Paul DeNigris: So I want to turn the conversation to visual effects. And like I said you guys wrote and produced the all pair nightmare. Remind me again, what network that was for a lifetime?

Trailer: Taylor. Do you really think you're ready to move into an entirely new place with complete strangers? You don't punch in at 9 and out at 5. Doctor and Mrs. Caleb are very private people. The job is 24 7. There's no social life here. You give yourself over to another family completely.

Chris LaMont: It was an independent film that got sold to the Lifetime Network.

So it wasn't made specifically for Lifetime. But yes, it did. And when it debuted, we had what, three quarters of a million viewers the first time. And the next time it aired, I think it was another almost, we had a total of almost a million people watch that movie, which was very

Joe Russo: nice. We had gotten some residuals on it.

Well,

Chris LaMont: yeah, the residuals are always something that are always a concern.

Joe Russo: The joys of non union production but yeah, no it's crazy to me that movies it's aired so many times and it's done so well on VOD, like just to give you an idea, like our composer on that movie has made more money.

Then I made writing and directing it off of the back end, which is like wild to me. But anyway, I digress. Yeah. A lot of people have seen the movie, which has been nice. That's great. Yeah, that's great. And you

Paul DeNigris: guys asked me to do a couple of shots. We changed a storefront simple sign replacement, pretty typical bread and butter kind of thing that we do.

Particularly for independent filmmakers. We do a lot of that. Oh, this name isn't cleared. We either need to erase it or replace it. Stuff like that really simple.

Joe Russo: Yeah, it was a very it's a domestic thriller. I believe is the genre that the producers. Yeah. Classify it under and it's, you're in a house with people.

There's not a lot of room for VFX elements and it was more yeah, I think cleanup was probably the best way to describe most of what the VFX shots were. It was, it was if we needed to replace something on the face of a phone or there was a magazine thing where they realized, the background of the, or the back of the magazine, the ad hadn't been cleared things like that.

And then, yeah, and then, the budget for our VFX was very low and our producer did not feel that we should We needed to change the storefront of the sign because quote unquote, nobody would be, nobody would care, but I cared. And Paul came in and helped us out with that. And I'm glad we did it because I think it's the little things like that.

It's the little details that matter. A movie is the cumulative effect of all those little things. And if you have one person who watches the movie and realizes the storefront isn't the same thing as what the characters are calling it, suddenly they've been taken out of the movie. So it meant a lot that you came in and helped with that stuff.

Chris LaMont: And the other thing too, Joe, to just, throw this out to everyone is that That shot. Ha. We knew that shot would have to be in the movie 'cause it was the establishing shot of the restaurant. So that's actually where Joe and I appear in the film in our cameo, cause we knew it had to be in there.

I'm like, we better be in this movie. So we actually plopped down to the table right in front of the shop. So yeah, sharp eyed viewers. And I don't know if you knew that, Paul, when you made that shot, that's how important that work of yours was because it was the shot that Joe and I were in far more.

Yeah. It was

Joe Russo: far more,

Chris LaMont: I did get in the movie later. I did have a quite the scene stealing, extra role as well, but that's Joe's Alfred Hitchcock moment, right? That's right.

Joe Russo: That's the only thing that I appear in the movie. Nice.

Paul DeNigris: That's correct. Nice. So shots like that typically get discovered in post.

Yeah, correct. The type of clean up stuff

Joe Russo: we knew going in, right? We knew that's why we, we shot it more as a plate than anything else. There was, the camera wasn't moving. The, it was locked off because we knew we were going to have to probably change. We were going to have to change that sign out.

And there was no practical way to do that. To put it for production, to put a new sign up there with our budgets and our schedule. So it was always known it was going to be a VFX shot. I think the producers in their mind were thinking, Oh, we'll tell Joe it'll be a VFX shot and then we'll try to cut it later, which is a.

a fun little trick, but but yeah we went in when I know that there are going to be cleanup jobs like that. I try my best not to move the camera around too much because I know that's where things get hairy and, Difficult. And I do, I know that because I did a lot of short films and a lot of those short films had, some level of cleanup VFX incorporated into them.

And I definitely remember which ones were a bear for the VFX artists and which ones were not. So I try to be conscientious about that stuff, but yeah, sometimes I think. You realize Oh shit, there's a cable in the background. That, that kind of fun stuff. I think you discover in post, and then you really hope that the camera's not moving too much.

Paul DeNigris: It's good that you you were able to take the lessons you learned from your short films and take those with you into. Making features and to be able to say, okay, I know this is gonna be a VFX shot, so I need to, simplify the setup or lock it off.

You're going into it informed you're not just flailing the camera around and expecting a VFX artist to be able to figure it out. Yeah that's something we see not. All that common anymore, early on when I started my company, a lot of clients, they would come and it would be, Hey, we discovered after the fact, after we shot it, we'd like to do VFX on this.

And it's, they haven't shot it with that in mind. And it just makes the process much more expensive, much more difficult, much more time consuming. So it's really great to hear that. That you were so hands on with things in your your short film experience that you were able to take that into your future.

Joe Russo: My senior thesis, I wanted to put a, it was a Santa Claus movie and I wanted to put Santa's sleigh on top of a rooftop. And so I went to the most talented VFX person that we went to school with at the time, JJ Chalupnik. And I said, how am I going to get a, a Santa's sleigh and reindeer up on top of this roof, and so we, he basically said, okay, when you shoot the shot, do this, and this. And, then he took basically a Christmas ornament of a sleigh and he put it on top of the roof. So then it, it ended up looking great. So I knew then if there's something that I don't know how to do, I need to ask someone who does know how to do it so that I shoot it in a way that's not going to make it.

I also think if you can go in and make those decisions earlier on, not only are you saving the VFX artist a headache, I think you can conceptualize the shot a lot better too. And that I think ultimately results in a better shot. And a better quality VFX shot at the end result.

Paul DeNigris: All right.

That's all for tonight. Goodbye. You you nailed it, Joe. That's the whole point of this podcast is to talk about this sort of stuff and educate. Independent filmmakers who've never used visual effects before to, to save them from making those mistakes that we all made early on in our career.

And to, to get that, to that point, you don't have to talk to me, but talk to somebody. You're going to use VFX in your film. You don't have to call me, but find somebody who knows what the hell they're doing and ask them, how do I shoot this that you will save yourself so much time and anguish and money and agony

Chris LaMont: for the the other thing too, though, Paul, I think is that, and I know this is something that I'm sure you drill into a lot of your viewers and audience is that bringing in the visual effects.

Supervisor, if you know there's going to be a good amount of visual effects, bringing them on early in the process to address a lot of these things, as opposed to having to play catch up, is always the best way to go as a filmmaker. Because, it shouldn't be a situation where you are in post and you realize there's one thing that erase a cable.

But it's not that if you're putting together something that's pretty comprehensive in regards to I know I'm going to be using effects and it's not going to be a cable erase or a sign replace. It's important to go to someone well in advance, talking about storyboards, talking about shot, shot setup and that kind of thing.

And it's not just, I think, getting advice, but if you engage someone to be your visual effects supervisor. And being able to bring them into all the phases of creativity in advance. It does nothing but make the entire pipeline work a lot smoother. And also I think that the effects end up being a lot better than they would have been if you're playing, catch up at the end.

Joe Russo: I've had both experiences. I think Paul one of those experiences is if you want to talk about it So

Paul DeNigris: obviously you guys you, your scripts are always on the blood list. You're clearly writing in a very specific genre horror, and I know Joe, you're a horror aficionado.

I know you also host a a podcast, a horror podcast which you can tell us about sure. Post Mor Postmortem with Mick Garris a a horror. Legend legendary horror director. And and so you obviously have a an affinity for that genre and that genre lives and dies on its special effects on set and its visual effects in post and particularly how they dovetail together.

So yeah, a few years back, Joe was producing a film, an anthology series called an anthology film. called Nightmare Cinema.

Trailer: Projectionist, curator of a hundred years of nightmares, trapped in a silver screen.

Welcome to my nightmare.

Paul DeNigris: And there was a sequence that involved extraterrestrial spiders that were attacking people that came out of this meteor and were attacking people. And it was a it was a big job. And I was, my company was one of the companies that, That bid on it and for various reasons, we didn't win it.

You don't win them all, obviously. And Joe was not the only producer on the film. Had he been, then maybe we would have won it. But he had other producers that he needed to to also, factor their network, their relationships with VFX people into the mix. And so it, it passed by, passed us by, which is fine.

I had that recently had a chance to catch up with the film and it looks great. It's a lot of fun. It's a. It's a kind of an update on creep show. One of my, one of my favorites from the from the genre from way back. And the spiders look great. And, to talk about, you can talk about that.

Some of the challenges, I know you just had practical spiders on set. You had a whole bunch of digital spiders got added, all of that sort of stuff.

Joe Russo: Nightmare cinema was a big challenge on the VFX fronts. And a lot of it was for reasons we already talked about where, And making sure you're engaging the VFX artists early on, if you can make sure they're present for when you're shooting, if you can make sure they're, they're as involved early on and conceptually as possible.

We got, I hate to use the word bamboozled, but we got bamboozled on this movie when it came to the VFX. Movie's almost five years old now. I think we can talk about this. So You know, what happened was I had been trying to lobby for the company that my friend, JJ was working at that point.

It was called Muse VFX. And they're a big, they're a big vendor. They do a lot of big TV stuff. And I had recently become friends with one of their most experienced artists there. And he brought us in and they did a bid. They did a whole, Presentation. And we really wanted to use them. Nick really wanted to use them, but they were underbid by another VFX house that our financiers had worked with in the past.

And what I did not know was somebody owed somebody money. And part of the reason we were funneling this job to them was because of that. And there was a lot of ill will between the financiers and this company. And. Unfortunately, Nightmare Cinema was the recipient of that kind of fractured relationship, let's say.

And I don't think that they were as engaged conceptually as they should have been. And when they were having issues on some of the other movies that they were working with this financier on, they stopped work. Nightmare cinema as a result. And so a lot of nightmare cinema got made in a bit of a VFX vacuum, so to speak.

There's one segment that is an exception to this and that was David Slade segment in the movie. He brought all of his own kind of VFX people to the mix who had, he'd worked with and they'd done walking dead and lots of other big Big shows. I think they might have done Black Mirror with him if I remember correctly.

But so his VFX looked great because they were involved conceptually from the beginning. They were involved in how the effects were going to augment the special effects on sets, how they were gonna change the landscape. His segment of VFX look incredible. There are some segments in Nightmare Cinema where I think.

It's very clear that there was not a big pre conceptualization going in. And I think that the, those sequences suffer a bit for it. But there was a moment in time where Paul's right. One of the most ambitious sequences in the movie was the scene with the aliens and we had no aliens. And I really didn't want to go and have.

The conversation with Alejandro Burga of , maybe they're just gonna be invisible aliens, And we knew that this was one of the best segments in the movie, and we knew that we had to try to support it. And, but we knew we didn't have any money because basically all the money we had paid to this VFX company, they took and they walked away with because they were owed so much money from the financiers already.

So we had. Basically no money left. And Paul came in with an amazing bid for it. And I wanted to push the work his way, but the reality of all is, we just didn't have any money left. And Mick Garris had a relationship with a VFX producer who was basically going to do it as a favor. So that's what happened, it was, we needed to get bailed out by somebody and we didn't have any money.

And then and, free 50 was the right price. And they did it. And, these were guys, really established VFX people. It wasn't like we were, we got basically what happened was they had just done the the Neil deGrasse Tyson show on Fox.

Oh God, what the hell was it called? I don't know. Cosmos. They had just done Cosmos and they made a ton of money off of that job. So they basically had the people in place and the money in place to just do this like fun little side thing, one more

Chris LaMont: shot, sir. Just one more shot.

Joe Russo: It was that's how our butts got saved on that.

It was really hard because I think like there are, I think that segment turned out really well. And I think David Slade's segment turned out really well for, the right reasons. I think some of the VFX and some of the other segments could have been better, but they were really more a consequence of being left, holding the bag by these financiers in this company which we will not name.

Chris LaMont: No, if you want to go, I'm sure you might figure it out.

Paul DeNigris: It's an extreme circumstance, but these things happen, There are lots of personalities in our business. And lots of lots of interesting characters who who, find themselves in situations. That's all I can say. It was

Joe Russo: a situation for sure. But, it really taught me I went and I did a short film right after Nightmare Cinema called Midnight Clear.

And it has a really big visual effects elements at the climax of the short. And, I made sure that JJ Chalupnik and I were talking through storyboards ahead of time that we both had a really strong idea of what it was going to look like so that when he was on set supervising those shots, it was lit the way we wanted it to be.

It was framed the way we wanted it to be. And I think, even though that was a 12, 000 short film that VFX shot looks, a several hundred thousand dollar one because we did it right. So I tried to take some of the mistakes we made on Nightmare Cinema and, apply them in a way that was far more successful in the short.

And I, and, I learned a lot. Going through that experience that I will hopefully not make those mistakes again, moving forward. Yeah.

Chris LaMont: Joe, I remember on that picture. I think that was the one thing that, that you were saying, and I agree with you, it's if that shot doesn't work. the whole movie doesn't work.

And so that so much care was put into that by Joe and the team because literally the entire tone of the film, the emotional arc of the characters, everything that happened, that was the big payoff. And visual effects, can do a lot more than just, Replace the sign or whatever. The crux of the, of that short film, and it's an excellent film.

And I'm glad that Joe, by the way, that you did not reveal the content of that shot. So hopefully they can go to a Joe's Joe Russo films. com. And they could watch midnight clear. It's also

Joe Russo: available on shutter right now too. But yeah, no it's we're really proud of how that turned out.

And but again, it went, it was because. I had all this experience, working on shorts with JJ over the years. It's because I had this nightmare experiment experience, pun intended, a nightmare cinema with VFX that I was able to take all of that experience and apply it in a really meaningful way for the storytelling.

It's also why when, we turned around and shot a pair a couple years ago and we called you and we're like, Hey, we need this shot ready. It was an easy job because I was being. conscious of what needed to be done,

Paul DeNigris: Yeah, that's great. And JJ is the same VFX artist who did the Santa Claus piece that you were talking about that you've been working with since college.

Chris LaMont: Yeah.

Paul DeNigris: That's, that's something I always told my students when I was teaching was, it, this is an, a an industry of relationships and networking. Look around the room. The people that you're sitting in class with right now are the beginnings. of your professional network. These are the people that you're going to work with again and again.

I have friends from film school from 30 years ago that I still work with, it's it's the reality. Once you find your tribe as a filmmaker you tend to stick with them. That's why we see You know, the Christopher Nolan's and the Michael Mann's and the Martin Scorsese's, they work with the same people over and over again because they developed that trust.

And

Joe Russo: it, yeah, there was almost between that, that senior thesis project and midnight clear. There was not, if there was a VFX shot in any of my shorts, he was my first call, and he's, he did great work on all that stuff. And in turn, I helped him get a couple of jobs.

I did,

Chris LaMont: I did.

Joe Russo: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. But I got him that job at muse, which got him out to LA and got to help launch, the, Now he's worked on huge TV shows, so it's been great to watch him. Blossom from that.

Paul DeNigris: Great. It sounds like I need to have him on.

Yeah, absolutely.

Chris LaMont: You can tell you all about working with Joe Russo, the true behind the scenes behind this lovable facade that you see, on your screen in your head right now, the true nightmare cinema, which is Joe anyway. Just kidding, moving on.

Paul DeNigris: Why don't we switch gears since you guys are writers and producers and we've heard about your producing exploits on all pair and on a nightmare cinema, among other things.

Let's switch gears to when you're at the conceptual stage, when you're writing a story, when you're writing a script, are you, when it comes to things like special effects, onset makeup, gore, things like that, or visual effects. Like the this big moment in a midnight clear.

Chris LaMont: Yeah.

Paul DeNigris: Are you thinking about that sort of stuff? Are you factoring that in when you write? Or are you writing pie in the sky? I'm going to write everything that I see in my head and then we'll figure out how to dial it back or we'll figure out how to find the money for it. Or Are you thinking, this is how much we're going to be able to make this for.

And so I have to tailor what's on the page to to make it as cost effective as possible.

Joe Russo: I think it's project specific, like if we go in knowing, like when we got hired to write the opera nightmare, we knew we were going to have a teeny tiny budget and a 14 day schedule, so we wrote that. story knowing that we had to minimize action sequences. We had to minimize visual effects elements. We had to, but I think when we're writing for ourselves and we're writing for, just try to turn out a cool spec screenplay. I would say it's more about what does the story call for, if we're writing a big action movie, I think we can be.

a little bit more liberal with those elements. If we're writing what's ultimately going to be a relatively contained, minimally budgeted horror movie, I think we try to be a little bit more careful about some of those things. I think the other thing that we've learned while writing is a lot of the development people that you meet while you're, fleshing this thing out into something that you can produce.

Don't necessarily understand. visual effects and don't necessarily understand how much they cost. Like for example there's something we wrote right before the writer's strike that we went back and forth with our reps about We wanted to basically do what we knew was going to just be a set extension.

Like we were going to have this wall that basically the characters looked up and it like stretches up into infinity, not a hugely complex VFX shot, but they read that and they go, Oh my God, that reads so expensive and it makes you go Oh, they don't actually know the difference between huge explosion and that, or, you know what I mean? Or a creature and that it's been interesting to I think over the years navigate what they think is expensive and what isn't Chris.

Chris LaMont: Yeah. I think, it, it's also depends on, the producers that you're talking to and what their scope of knowledge is as well.

So Joe, when I think about visual effects and story. I remember the big debate we was when we did the unwelcome script. And the big thing about unwelcome is that there is a huge house fire. It's a contained movie that takes place in one house and the house had to catch on fire.

And we were like adamant that there was no other way. That we could tell that story without the house catching on fire because it all this these allegory and everything that came comes back and I remember the one producer read that and immediately they just said it's too expensive to put a house on fire and we knew I mean we knew it was going to be some visual effects for sure but it was like the cost of that especially for a contained movie it's like the cost of that we felt You From a story perspective, outweighed what we felt.

That a producer would need to pay to do it right, to do the story of the character.

Joe Russo: I also was thinking too, my, my friend at that company, Muse, Stefan Broderick he's like the TV fire guy. Like he's one of the best at fire in the business. So I was thinking when we get the money to make this movie, I'm just going to call him.

And he'll do it for the right price and we'll solve that issue, cause there really wasn't a huge, the rest of the movie wasn't, was not a big VFX job. And it was, there was, there was a lot of production design elements. I think that would have been augmented by VFX, but that was really the big VFX piece and trying to convince a producer who maybe had.

A couple of recent bad experiences with FHIR and VFX that it could be done, it could be done well and could be done for a price becomes a challenge. But, I think ultimately you have to try to. Stay true to the narrative. I don't think you can compromise on that stuff because I think once you start changing the narrative to Redo your budget.

I think you know, that's how we went from I think what was a really interesting science fiction action movie to In open source.

Chris LaMont: I knew exactly

Joe Russo: where you were going with this. And that became the one location movie hard kill. And so we've watched our sci fi VFX heavier ideas get cut to the bone and we've seen what happens and the results almost always is not a positive, so I think the better thing is get a really good artist in early, figure out what your shots are going to be. storyboard, then, maybe do some animatics, like whatever you have to do ahead of time so that when you get there and you shoot it, it's going to be the cheapest and easiest way to do it.

But I think again A lot of studio executives, because they don't have that tactical experience and maybe, and because they don't necessarily have the relationship an artist to an artist does they don't, they can't guarantee those things and so they never want to bet on those things.

Does that make sense?

Paul DeNigris: Sure does.

Joe Russo: I think for us it's a mixed, but I think ultimately when we're writing for ourselves specifically, we're always trying to write. The best version that we can, and then, if that includes VFX elements, that includes VFX elements and we'll figure it out,

Chris LaMont: agree. Yeah. It's just so important. I think we know that the VFX are going to be there. The VXI mean, they can do anything. You can do anything with VFX that your heart and your soul can create and put on the page. So for us it's more about. Let's get it out there. Let's put it down.

Let's envision this. Let's make it great for the audiences. Let's make it great for the producers and the studio execs to be able to read it and get excited about the project and excited about that. And our hope, honestly, just like Joe said, is that, yeah, they're so enamored with the product and with the screenplay that they're not going to worry about how much you got to pay for it, because eventually that will happen.

But, reading a screenplay, a fresh screenplay for the first time and reading that and experiencing that, it's a special thing and if you do it right, it can definitely lead to very magical places in someone's heart and soul. And we just know that at the end of the day that the VFX will always be there to support the artist's vision.

And yeah, it might be really complicated. This stuff that we just figured out right now, it was another thing with the lava thing where we're doing this lava set piece. And we're like, maybe it's too big, maybe not. And we realized that there were so many. different things that were intertangled in that, that were resolved and started again from a big set piece.

We're like, why not do it? Why not keep this? Because it tells the story in the best possible way that we can do. And, but

Joe Russo: again, I think we're also very pragmatic about the fact that a lot of, this scene in the sequence, while it will be VFX heavy, a lot of it's going to be. Set extensions and changing elements that are already there.

It's not going to be like creating a full on character or, and having them move and interact with people. It's more, augmenting the location. And again, I think that's something that like your average studio exec isn't necessarily going to know the difference. And, but, your visual effects artists and your, I think savvier VFX filmmakers are and it's more just about being precise with your shooting, and, but I think the other problem with VFX, like on a macro level, and I think we're seeing this recently more and more with some of these really VFX heavy tent poles, is, these executives like. Visual effects for one reason, more than practical effects, they're not locked into the thing.

So what I mean by that is if I shoot a head explosion or a monster or something on set, we're limited to that thing. Sure VFX can augment it. But that is the thing, whereas it's, if it's a completely CG character or completely CG background, these execs can tinker and give notes on it pretty much up until two or three weeks before release.

I think that's why we're seeing so many people being like, Oh these, this Marvel movie or that DC movie, the effects don't look as good. It's because they just keep, they keep getting tinkered with. Whereas I think you look at something like Avatar 2. And the VFX look incredible because you had James Cameron putting his foot down and saying, this is the shot and we're going to spend a year making it perfect.

You know what I mean? So I think it's unfortunately how we're using VFX is right now. I think more to. A anxious, fear driven execs advantage over the filmmakers. And unfortunately I think with AI now coming into to potentially augment and speed up VFX, that's only going to let them try more things.

And it's not going to help them run out the clock any less. I think it's just going to make, more work and more choices and more options that they're going to have to choose from. Maybe the physical work of a shot will get faster, but I think at the end of the day, they're still going to take it down to the wire every single time.

Paul DeNigris: Yeah. The overall reliance on VFX and also this 11th hour noodling, literally right up until the, the week of release. Part of that is because VFX is not A unionized trade, right? So it's the easy trade to abuse the hell out of. And I know both of you as WGA members are are keenly aware of, the labor situation in the industry and all that.

And that's a topic for another day, but, but yeah, to some degree the VFX industry has been forced to, kind of race to the bottom. We're all being asked to, cut our bids, but up our productivity up, our output up the number of iterations that we give clients.

And it's a bad scenario. It's why we end up with. Weird Mark Ruffalo head floating on the Hulkbuster armor in Infinity War, right? One of the biggest movies of all time. And then it's got some really dodgy VFX in it. I love my Marvel stuff. But but still I, I look at it and I go, There's some overworked and underpaid VFX artists in that, in the chain there.

And that's why we end up with shots that don't look good. And unfortunately those chickens are coming home to roost. We're seeing more and more tent poles that are just, they're . Yeah. I think audiences are

Joe Russo: getting, audiences are getting wise to it. Yeah. And the thing that was so frustrating to me was I was.

Talking to an exec recently and they said something to the effect of it's the filmmakers who are just unfamiliar with VFX. And I, I took offense to that. Cause I'm like, or are you guys just having these filmmakers change these things over and over again? And I would almost, I would bet nine out of 10 times. That's the issue more so than, cause I think a director who is worth their weight will listen to their VFX artists. They're not going to, if they don't know what they're doing, I don't think they're going to, because I want to believe that I don't think they're going to tell a VFX artist how to do something.

It's nine times out of 10, it's going to be the other way around, it's, we can do this. Okay. I would love it to look like X. This is how we accomplish

Paul DeNigris: it. It, it needs to be a symbiotic relationship, right? It needs to be you as the filmmaker saying, here's the thing I want to accomplish, Paul, how do we do it?

And then me saying, okay. Here's where our limitations are. Here's how we can work around that. Here's what we can figure out. Here's a system that we can, engineer to make this happen. And that's why James Cameron and the Avatar movies are so successful because he is both sides of that equation.

He's a VFX guy by trade as well as a visionary director. So he can look at it from both sides and say, this is what I want to do. And I know this is what I have to communicate to my VFX team to make it happen. But it doesn't happen without that, without those strong relationships. If

Joe Russo: the director is not in a position to tell their execs, no, like James Cameron is, I think that's where you find yourself in this never ending example of iterations.

I saw a funny joke that went around a couple of months ago about AI, and it was like if AI is completely dependent on the clients telling it what it wants, it will, it'll never be functional because they never know what they want. And, I think that's why, a director ideally has some idea of what he or she wants.

And it's their job, just like it's their job to pull the performance out of an actor. Or to, pull a great script out of a writer or what whatever piece of the crew they're working with the biggest part is they have to communicate their vision, to the artists that they're working with.

And if you have an exec who is behind that director. Stepping on that vision every step of the way. I think that's how we find ourselves in the situations where these execs are getting really overworked.

Paul DeNigris: And, that's why I choose to work for independent filmmakers predominantly, I've worked on studio stuff.

I've worked on network stuff, but where. I get the most fulfillment as a visual effects artist, visual effects supervisor, whatever is working with filmmakers like you guys who are passionate, who are committed, who are focused on the story, not on the focus group, not on the, pixel fucking as we call it, just giving notes for the sake of giving notes.

It is where the VFX artists can be partners, right? We're helping you tell the story. We're not just a, a commodity that can be, swapped in and out. It's, there's a creative partnership here and we're helping you tell the story. And that's why I'm making a.

Podcast called VFX for Indies and not, VFX inside the studio system. There's tons of podcasts out there about that, about the, the VFX of Marvel and the VFX of Star Wars. We don't need more of that. What I want is to empower the filmmakers who are outside the system to realize that there are lots of ways that they can use VFX to tell their stories, to expand their canvas without killing their budget.

And they just have to be smart about it and apply a lot of the things that you've talked about in terms of preparation and communication.

Chris LaMont: Oh, I'd like to add one more thing real fast, and this is speaking specifically to the indie filmmakers is that, and this goes for, I think, everyone who does film is that there are two things that no filmmaker ever has enough of, and it's time and money.

And when you're working, with a budget, especially as an independent filmmaker, the dollars are tight. And if you haven't done and worked with a visual effects professional, like Paul, basically you are paying on a shot per shot basis. And having that understanding that in your budgeting I think needs to, you need to be careful filmmaker, because, something like a cable.

that's sitting in your in a shot that needs to be erased, that costs money. So maybe it's a lot smarter to look through the camera and make sure there isn't a cable in the shot or the boom shadow isn't there. Because you are working with finite resources and they aren't that they're not studio money.

They're not millions and millions of dollars. However, the other thing that you have to remember is that as a filmmaker, that you'd also don't, if you don't have a lot of money, is it, what is it good, fast and cheap, right guys, you get to only pick two, right? So if you want your movie to be good and you want it to be done fast, right?

It's not going to be cheap if you want your movie to be done fast, right? And cheap, it's not going to be good. But. If you have an understand how important it is to allocate your time, because when Ben Paul, I know that this is a lot because you do love independent filmmakers so much. And when you do work with them, but the idea that you can't expect things to happen on a small budget, amazingly quickly, you have to be cognizant of the visual effects people that you're working with.

And if they're giving you a break, on a rate that it may not happen as fast as you want it to be. And so it's really understanding that, and I heard, Ron Howard complains he never has enough time or has enough money for his movies as well. So understand that if you want it to be, good and you want it to be done cheap.

It's not going to be done fast. All right. So you have to understand what your limitations are. And yeah, if you want things, if you want to throw money at stuff to make things happen quickly, you absolutely can do that. But especially with visual effects. And let's be honest. When you're talking about the willing suspension of disbelief.

Visual effects are the most important thing. Bad sci fi, bad sci fi when you see it because it's bad visual effects. That's why when Star Wars initially came out, the first Star Wars in 77, the effects were so good that people bought into the whole movie. Anyone can spot bad visual effects in a heartbeat.

Being able to understand that you need to allow enough time. You need to budget accordingly. I think those are the most important things because at the end of the day, if the effects aren't good, no one's buying what you're selling. But you also have to work within budget

Paul DeNigris: as well. That's a great place to stop.

So gentlemen, what's up next for you? What projects do you have coming out and where can people find out more about what you're up to?

Joe Russo: The big thing that we're facing at the time of this recording is the WGA is on strike against the. Major motion picture studios and streamers and Chris and I are part of that strike.

We've got a couple of projects that we're ready to try it. We've been working with producers on that. I'll, we'll get back to when this is over. But I think our immediate focus is just getting through the strikes so that we have We all have jobs moving forward and there's an industry moving forward.

Because

Paul DeNigris: it all starts on the page. It doesn't matter how well I push pixels around. If you guys don't give me stories to help tell. As

Chris LaMont: feature film screenwriters, a lot of the work we do is on spec. It's us coming up with an idea on our own, us putting in the three to four months to be able to bring that script to a place where we're happy with it, that eventually could go to market.

And so that's what we're working on right now is we've got some spec scripts that we're working on that when this strike ends, we will be able to take it out to, producers will be able to take it out. We have, producer attached to one of them. But for us, it's, We're still staying razor sharp in regards to being creative.

Being a screenwriter on strike doesn't necessarily mean that we're not writing. By the, hopefully by the 400th time that people hear this, We're not going to be on strike anymore. And we'll have some really great things to tell you in our follow up podcast that I'm sure that you'll be figuring out as as soon as we done, because you, this was such a great conversation for us, Paul, thank you so much for giving us an opportunity to talk with you and your viewers and audience.

Paul DeNigris: Yeah. Thanks so much for for imparting your wisdom to to the audience. I really appreciate it.

Chris LaMont: Our

Joe Russo: pleasure.

Chris LaMont: Joe, you

Paul DeNigris: got Joe Rooster tweets. Joe Russo tweets. Yes. Joe is a prolific, prolific tweeter. And also if you really want to be entertained, ask him sometime about his connection to the Marvel Joe Russo, because he's not that guy.

Chris LaMont: Wait a

Paul DeNigris: minute.

Chris LaMont: What do you mean? What do you mean you're not? Marvel Joe Russo. You've been lying to me this whole time. There

Paul DeNigris: you go. Thanks so much for joining us on today's episode of the VFX for Indies podcast. You can find transcripts, images, and other cool stuff at our website. VFX for indies. com.

If you enjoyed the show, please. Subscribe, follow rate, review, comment on either YouTube or your favorite podcast app. On behalf of everyone at Foxtrot X Ray, I'm Chief Pixel Pusher Paul DeNigris, and we all thank you so much for your support of the show. See you next time.