From Script to Post: Inside the VFX Process with Joe Russo and Chris LaMont

Join us as we pull back the curtain on the world of filmmaking, with the talented writer-producer duo, Joe Russo and Chris LaMont, as our guides. Imagine sharing a space with the pioneers behind the Bruce Willis action movie, Hard Kill and the spine-chilling Netflix horror, The Inheritance. The journey gets even more exciting as we traverse their career paths, delve into their successful partnership, and unravel the process that led them to triumph on the Blood List, a compilation of the year's best horror scripts, no less. It's a raw, unfiltered glimpse into Joe's transformation from a development executive to a creator, their on-set experiences, and much more.

Now, hold your breath as we switch gears and immerse ourselves in the world of visual effects. Like the pieces of a puzzle fitting seamlessly, Joe and Chris dissect the VFX process in their recent movie, The Au Pair Nightmare, and the subtle yet crucial role these effects play in the overall narrative. The duo underscores the importance of meticulous planning, the joy, and rigors of non-union production, and how seemingly small details could enhance or mar the visual story. Yes, we are talking about transforming a storefront for a film and the grueling task of cleanup VFX, with not just insights, but anecdotes from their personal experiences.

In the final leg of this riveting journey, we delve deeper into the role of visual effects supervisors, especially in horror films. Beyond the clapperboard, Joe and Chris impart valuable lessons from their experience on the anthology series Nightmare Cinema. The duo underscores the importance of early engagement with VFX supervisors, the significance of staying within budget constraints, and the potential of AI in visual effects. Furthermore, they highlight the importance of a symbiotic relationship between directors and VFX artists, bringing home the point that when this collaboration works, it's magic on screen. Prepare to be educated, entertained, and enlightened!

Take-Out: https://vimeo.com/9734622

The Au Pair Nightmare: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.ceb90f89-5071-2a61-89ff-83f097c0b800?autoplay=0&ref_=atv_cf_strg_wb

Midnight Clear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXQhzY9fgY0

Nightmare Cinema: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.acb560ef-be74-2da5-6e85-d46fa3b3880a?ref=imdb_web&autoplay=1&ref_=imdbref_tt_wbr_fdv&tag=imdbtag_tt_wbr_fdv-20

Hard Kill: https://www.netflix.com/title/81306216

Transcript

Paul DeNigris: 0:00

What do alien spiders, sadistic projectionists, nanny nightmares and Bruce Willis have in common? Find out this week on the VFX for Indies podcast. With me today are Joe Russo and Chris Lamont, a writer producer team that I've known for a number of years. They recently wrote and that's a recently wrote the Bruce Willis action, or hard kill. They wrote a movie called the Au pair nightmare that I was lucky enough to do some visual effects for, and they have written the upcoming Netflix horror movie, the Inheritance, among many other things that they will tell you about. Welcome to the show, gentlemen.

Chris LaMont: 1:00

Well, thank you, paul, it's a pleasure to be here.

Joe Russo: 1:04

Hello Paul.

Paul DeNigris: 1:07

So I've known Chris for close to 20 years now. Chris was the founder of the Phoenix Film Festival, so I know him through that. And if I haven't mentioned it before, I will say it many, many more times to come the Phoenix Film Festival is my favorite film festival in the world and I make sure that I participate in it in some way every single year. For example, chris and I run a station at the in the, in the big party tent every year during what's called Kids Day and it happens to be a big surprise, happens to be about visual effects we set up a big green screen and let the kids do their, do their little skits on the green screen and send them home with a composite of themselves, you know, with SpongeBob or something like that. So it's a lot of fun. And Chris, chris and I have collaborated on a lot of things. And then I've known Joe since he was a student of Chris's back at Arizona State University for quite a while. Joe was never a student of mine. He was long gone from ASU before I started teaching there.

Joe Russo: 2:08

Long gone.

Paul DeNigris: 2:09

I'm old, but I have avidly followed his career since since he left ASU and moved out to Los Angeles.

Chris LaMont: 2:16

As have I. I have also followed that career pretty much.

Joe Russo: 2:20

Unfortunately, we're handcuffed together.

Chris LaMont: 2:23

Yes, my second wife.

Joe Russo: 2:25

He has to, he has to follow along.

Paul DeNigris: 2:30

Nice. Well, that's a great segue. Why don't you guys give do a little introduction of yourselves and your career highlights, both individually and as a partnership? Chris, you want to go first.

Chris LaMont: 2:41

Sure, you know I started making movies a long time ago when I was in fourth grade, and very prolific. I was just still be doing it today directed and written, directed number of way, micro budget features. As Paul mentioned that I did, I did start the Phoenix Film Festival. I also produce a number of feature films that have gotten national international distribution. I switched from writing, directing, to producing and now I'm working with Joe Russo here as a screenwriters. We're both in the WGA and we've had a lot of success and we hope to continue doing that much, much more. You know, depending on what the market will bear and how much the producers and studios will bear us, I think, is the best way to put that.

Joe Russo: 3:31

So yeah, I mean spoiler alert. I met Chris at Arizona State when he was my teacher. He was the youngest faculty member at the film school at the time and really wasn't a film school, to be honest. That's true. It was barely a film school. I hadn't even officially started yet. The film school isn't officially yet Right, and you know Chris, chris is a polarizing figure with students because he gives them honest feedback and you know, film students, who are invincible in film school, don't always like to hear that they're wrong. I was under the impression that feedback is good, notes are good. I took the feedback he gave me on a short and I applied it and it ended up getting into a film festival. So I was like, oh, he gives good notes. So I continued to go back to him, even though that was the only class I ever had with Chris. I continued to go back to him to get feedback on my subsequent shorts that I made through school. We worked professionally for the first time together on a movie he produced where you know. I think it was a really challenging shoot and he and I bonded through that process.

Chris LaMont: 5:02

And when I brought a few ASU grads on and you know, joe has always been a director and so I said, well, the best way to learn how to be a director is to be the assistant to the director. And so Joe, joe is the assistant director on a feature, and if you want to look it up on IMDb, you're more than happy to do that.

Joe Russo: 5:18

To the director.

Chris LaMont: 5:20

Assistant to the director. Yes, there's a difference. Yes, and that was a great experience for sure.

Joe Russo: 5:26

So we basically bonded on that and when I started to think about moving out to Los Angeles I knew I needed some kind of a calling card. And Chris and I collaborated on a short film called Takeout which ended up playing at a bunch of festivals and won some awards and basically gave me the ammunition I needed to help get me a job out in LA. So since then we've kind of been. You know, I worked as a development executive for a few years, which is where I kind of got my chops as a producer and while I was doing that Chris and I were quietly riding away at night. Kind of our first big success on the ride in front was we set a project up with Will Smith's company. And that was kind of when I was like maybe I should be focusing on this more than just something I do in the evenings with Chris. And so I left that development job and we proceeded to have like a really nice little run where I was. You know it's a hard thing to transition from development executive to creator and because- Especially in the town.

Chris LaMont: 6:39

You know, I mean Joe. Everyone knew Joe as an exec and so suddenly he's walking around as a creative. And everyone's like I didn't know you could write Joe.

Joe Russo: 6:51

Well, and they didn't until, you know, chris and I landed in the agent and manager, and then we ended up getting on this thing called the blood list, which is basically the best horror scripts of the year, is voted on by execs around town, and we proceeded to go on a run where we got on that list three years in a row with three different scripts. Two of them have been produced now, the third is set up with a producer. So, you know, it kind of helped transition me from being an exec to, you know, a full on writer. And you know, so that's when, you know, we started selling things and things started getting made. We started getting hired to write stuff and suddenly we've got like a nice little body of work.

Chris LaMont: 7:38

So and I think the important thing that you can tell, you know and take with you all of the listeners and viewers out there is that you know. One of the reasons why there's been some success for Joe and myself is because Joe's relationships that he's made throughout the years while he was a development exec. It's so crucial to be networking when you are in this industry. It doesn't matter where you're at, what department you're in, what station you are, whether you're a veteran who's been making movies for years or it's your first film or streaming project or TV series or what, even with short films that you're making on your own, it's all about networking and talking to people and getting your name out there. The one thing I always remember is this idea that it's not you know everyone says it's not you know what you know, it's who you know. It's more important, it's not who you know, it's who knows you, and so I think that was a real great you know a real great thing to watch how Joe's networking has really kind of helped to jumpstart a lot of the work that we've had and a lot of the sales that we've made and a lot of the works that's been created. So I think that's something that everyone can remember, yeah.

Joe Russo: 8:47

I got really great advice before I moved to LA from an entrepreneur named Larry Sheffield and he said when you go out to LA, try to meet two new people a week, because if you meet two new people a week which doesn't seem like a huge daunting thing by the end of the year you've met over 100 new people. Right, and that was advice that I really took to heart. And once I moved up to being a development exec and I had an expense account, it became a lot easier to go meet two new people a week. But you know and Chris and I absolutely benefited from that I mean, our first screenplay sale truly came from kind of a happenstance situation like that. Someone I had met on a general meeting. You know he and I partnered up on some projects. We went to Lionsgate for a meeting on one of those projects and while we were in the lobby we bumped into the producer of the soft franges and he happened to be neighbors with my friend and as we were walking away, matt says to me gosh, I wish I had something that was like saw to give to Mark over here. And I said, you know, it's really funny, matt, like we actually just signed with the grocery agency off of a script that is kind of saw like, and he goes really, and he turns around and across the lobby he goes hey, mark, he goes. Yeah, matt, I'm going to send you a script. It's really great. And then he goes, can't wait to read it. Mark turns around, or Matt turns around to me and goes it better be good. You bet, you bet, and that was how we sold our first screenplay.

Chris LaMont: 10:34

It was a bloodless script too, so I mean we knew that teeth.

Joe Russo: 10:38

Yeah Well, it wasn't a bloodless script then, though it hadn't even gone out to the market yet.

Chris LaMont: 10:42

Oh, oh, that's right, you're right, yeah, yeah, we got an early look at it.

Joe Russo: 10:46

We got an early look at it and they liked it and they hemmed and hawed and then, when it got on the blood list, they made an offer for it the next day because they didn't want it to get scripted up by anybody else. But so yeah, but it goes to show you, I had a relationship with someone who had a relationship with another person who ended up having access to money and they bought the script from us.

Paul DeNigris: 11:12

That's a great story and you're right, this business is all about relationships. I mean, most of the VFX work that I do now has come to me through a producer who I met, because I handed somebody a business card at a party at the Phoenix Film Festival and then my business card made the rounds and landed in the hands of a VFX producer who has become my partner and we've worked together for five years off of that one business card. It is a business of relationships. The other thing I wanted to tag onto. You said Chris gives good notes. Chris and I became friends because he saw my feature that I wrote and produced and directed and he said there's something here. It's not good right now, but I mean he was a little nicer than that.

Chris LaMont: 12:03

But just a little nicer. I don't know why anybody talks to me when you start.

Paul DeNigris: 12:10

He said there's something good in there. If you're willing to sit with me, I've got some ideas. And we sat and we spent an afternoon. We chopped a half hour out of that movie and then it started getting into film festivals and it went into distribution and all of that.

Joe Russo: 12:24

And so.

Paul DeNigris: 12:25

Chris and I have been have been buds ever since, and that, to me, illustrates one of the key takeaways that I've had in my career is notes are good. Notes are how we grow.

Joe Russo: 12:40

Yeah, they can. You're in different perspectives. They can be. It depends on who's giving them. But yeah, they can be good. You should be open to all notes, but you should also be discerning about how to implement Right.

Paul DeNigris: 12:56

I think that's all. Notes are an opportunity for growth. There you go, that's. That's a better. They're good or bad, they're opportunities I know they're good, but they're an opportunity for growth.

Joe Russo: 13:04

No, I it's funny, I, Chris has set me up with some some folks to give notes to over the years as well, and they come back to him and they're like Joe's so nice, joe's so wonderful, bum bub, bub bub, and he's like. He's like I don't get it. He's like when I get people notes, they tell me I'm a jerk. He's like what are you doing? That's so different.

Chris LaMont: 13:26

I have to hold. I have retooled the way that I do work with notes and and I've really tried to emphasize the positive more.

Joe Russo: 13:34

I think it's more of a well nurturing kind of kind of way as opposed to we were, we were benefits of the other, the other route.

Paul DeNigris: 13:46

But but yes, absolutely, and and and Chris, you're not alone. I'm I'm sure tons and tons of my students over the years would say that that my my notes were were hard to swallow. Again, the ones who took my notes are the ones that are working in the industry. you know the the the folks who wanted my feedback, who wanted to grow. They're the ones who are, you know, 2d supervisors on Star Trek and 3D supervisors at Marvel and things like that they're. They're the ones who are out there doing it because they learned early on. Notes are an opportunity for growth and that's how you get better as a writer, as a visual effects artist, as a director, as an editor, any any creative, technical, you know position in this industry If you get good notes that help you grow, that help you see beyond your own ability, right, because we we don't know what we don't know, right, so we're only ever as good as as our current knowledge and notes. Thoughtful, constructive notes are always a good way to grow beyond your, your current limitations.

Chris LaMont: 14:49

So now I just want to say one thing real fast is that you know I I don't the notes that when, when, and it's great when you have a lot of a support system, that gives you great feedback. But the one thing that I always tell you know, my students and anyone that I'm, I'm mentoring and anything like that is is that you shouldn't ask, you don't want people to tell you how good your script is, because that's not going to help you. The most important thing is to tell me what's wrong with it or how can I fix it in your opinion. Because, like you said, like that's how you grow. But, more importantly, it's like I don't need you to tell me that it's good. I kind of know already it's good. I wouldn't have made it like that, but you know, for you to be able to drill down what didn't work for you, that to me, is the most valuable thing. And to and to be surrounded by people who are willing to give you that honest opinion, no matter how it's, delivered, by people that you respect, who you trust to give you very objective notes, because they just want to see the work get better. I think that's, that's the most important thing.

Paul DeNigris: 15:51

Totally agree. So I want to turn the conversation to visual effects and, like I said, you guys wrote and produced the AWAPair Nightmare. Remind me again what network that was for Lifetime.

Trailer: 16:05

Taylor, do you really think you're ready to move into an entirely new place with complete strangers? You don't punch in at nine and out at five. Doctor and Mrs Caleb are very private people. The job is 24 seven. There's no social life here. You give yourself over to another family completely.

Chris LaMont: 16:25

It was an independent film that got sold to the Lifetime network, so it wasn't made specifically for Lifetime, but yes, it did, and when it debuted we had like what, that's three quarters of a million viewers the first time, and the next time it aired I think it was another like almost we had a total of almost a million people watch that movie, which was very, very interesting.

Joe Russo: 16:46

Sure, it would have been nice if we had gotten some residuals on it.

Chris LaMont: 16:49

Well, yeah, I mean residuals are always a concern.

Joe Russo: 16:56

The joys of non-union production.

Chris LaMont: 16:58

Yeah absolutely.

Joe Russo: 16:59

But yeah, no, it's crazy to me. That movie's it's aired so many times and it's done so well on VOD Like just to give you an idea like our composer on that movie has made more money than I made. Writing and directing hits off of the back end, which is like wild to me. But anyway, I digress. Yeah a lot of people have seen the movie, which has been nice.

Paul DeNigris: 17:25

That's great yeah that's great, and you guys asked me to do a couple of shots. We changed a storefront. Yes, you know, it's a simple sign replacement Pretty typical Bretton Butter kind of thing that we do, particularly for independent filmmakers. We do a lot of that. Oh, this name isn't cleared. We either need to erase it or replace it. You know, stuff like that Really really simple.

Joe Russo: 17:46

Yeah, it was a very. It's a domestic thriller, I believe is the genre that the producers classify it under. And you know, you're in a house with people. There's not a lot of room for VFX elements and it was more. Yeah, I think cleanup was probably the best way to describe most of what the VFX shots were. It was, you know, it was if we needed to replace something on the face of a phone or there was a magazine thing where they realized the background of the or the back of the magazine that had hadn't been cleared, things like that. And then, yeah, and then, you know, the budget for our VFX was very low and our producer did not feel that we should. We needed to change the storefront of the sign because quote unquote nobody would be, nobody would care. But I cared and Paul Kramm helped us out with that and I'm glad we did it because I think, like it's the little things, like that, it's the little details that matter on, you know, a movie's accumulative effect of all those little things, and if you have one person who watches the movie and realizes the storefront isn't the same thing as what the characters are calling it, suddenly they've been taken out of the movie, you know. So it meant a lot that you came in and helped with that stuff.

Chris LaMont: 19:18

You know, and the other thing too, joe, to just, you know, throw this out to everyone is that that shot we knew that shot would have to be in the movie because it was the establishing shot of the restaurant. So that's actually where Joe and I appear in the film in our cameo, because we knew it had to be in there. I'm like we better be in this movie. So we actually plopped out the table right in front of the shot. So yeah. Sharp-eyed viewers, and I don't know if you knew that, Paul, when you made that shot. That's how important that work of yours was, because it was the shot that Joe and I were in.

Joe Russo: 19:55

Yeah, Chris was far more cynically motivated than I was.

Chris LaMont: 20:01

Well, I did get in the movie later. I did have quite the scene stealing. You know extra role as well. But that's Joe's Alfred Hitchcock moment, right there.

Joe Russo: 20:10

That's right. That's the only thing that I appear in the movie in Nice. That's correct.

Paul DeNigris: 20:14

Nice. So shots like that typically get discovered in post. Yeah, correct, you know the type of cleanup stuff that's what we knew going in.

Joe Russo: 20:25

Right, we knew that's why we you know we shot it more as a plate than anything else there was there was, the camera wasn't moving, the it was locked off because we knew we were going to have to, probably we were going to have to change that sign out and there was no practical way to put it for production, to put a new sign up there with our budgets and our schedule. So it was kind of always known it was going to be a VFX shot. I think the producers in their mind were thinking, oh, we'll tell Joe it'll be a VFX shot and then we'll try to cut it later. You know which is which is a fun little trick, I guess. But but but yeah, we went in. When I know that there are going to be cleanup jobs like that, I try my best not to to move the camera around too much, because I know that's where things get hairy and difficult, and I do. I know that because I did a lot of short films and a lot of those short films had, you know, some level of cleanup VFX incorporated into them and I definitely remember which ones were a bear for the VFX artists and which ones were not. So I try to be conscientious about that stuff. But yeah, I mean, sometimes I think you know, you, you realize like, oh shit, there's a cable in the background that that kind of fun stuff I think you discover and post, you know right, and then then you really hope that the camera is not moving too much.

Paul DeNigris: 22:05

Well, it's good that you, you were able to take the lessons you learned from your short films and the VFX. You know you're short films and and and take those with you into making features and to be able to say, ok, I know this is going to be a VFX shot, so I need to, you know, simplify the, the setup or or lock it off. You know you're going into it informed, you're not just flailing the camera around and expecting a VFX artist to be able to figure it out. That's. That's something we see Not not all that common anymore, but you know, early on, when I started my company, a lot of clients, they would come and it would be hey, we discovered after the fact, after we shot it, we'd like to do VFX on this and it's. They haven't shot it with that in mind and it just makes the process much more expensive, much more difficult, much more time consuming. So it's, it's. It's really great to hear that, that you were so hands on with things in your, your short film. Yeah, experience that you are able to take that into into your future.

Joe Russo: 23:06

My my, my senior thesis. I wanted to put a. It was a, it was a Santa Claus movie and I wanted to put Santa's sleigh on top of a rooftop. And so I went to the most talented VFX person that we went to school with the time, JJ Chalupnik, and I said how am I going to get, you know, a Santa sleigh and reindeer up on top of this roof? You know? And so we. He basically said OK, when you shoot the shot, do this, this and this, and you know. Then he took basically a Christmas ornament of a sleigh and he put it on top of the roof, so that it you know it ended up looking great. So I kind of knew then, if there's something that I don't know how to do, I need to ask someone who does know how to do it, so that I shoot it in a way that's not going to make their life worse on the back end. I also think like if you can go in and you make those decisions earlier on, not only are you saving the VFX artist a headache, I think you can conceptualize the shot a lot better too, and then I think ultimately results in a better quality VFX shot at the end result. All right, that's all for tonight.

Paul DeNigris: 24:30

Goodbye, you nailed it, joe. I mean, that's that's. That's. The whole point of this podcast is to talk about this sort of stuff and educate independent filmmakers who've never used visual effects before, to save them from making those mistakes that we all made early on in our career. And to you know, to get that to that point, you don't have to talk to me, but talk to somebody. Right, you're going to use VFX in your film. You don't have to call me, but find somebody who knows what the hell they're doing and ask them how do I shoot this? That you will save yourself so much time and anguish and money and agony.

Chris LaMont: 25:13

Well, the other thing too, though, paul, I think is that, and I know, this is something that I'm sure you drill into a lot of your viewers and audience is that bringing in the visual effects supervisor if you know there's going to be a good amount of visual effects, bringing them on early in the process to address a lot of these things, as opposed to having to play catch up, is always the best way to go as a filmmaker, because you know it shouldn't be a situation where you are in post and you realize there's one thing that let he race a cable. It's not that if you're putting together something that's pretty comprehensive in regards to like I know I'm going to be using effects and it's not going to be a cable or a sign replace, you know that it's important to go to someone well in advance talking about storyboards, talking about shot. You know shot set up and that kind of thing, and it's not just, I think, getting advice, but if you engage someone to be your visual effects supervisor and being able to bring them into all the phases of creativity in advance, it does nothing but make the entire pipeline work a lot smoother and also I think that the effects end up being a lot better than they would have been. If you're playing, you know catch up at the end.

Joe Russo: 26:26

I've had both experiences. I think, paul, you know one of those experiences is, if you want to talk about it, yeah, so obviously you guys, your scripts, are always on the blood list.

Paul DeNigris: 26:41

You're clearly writing in a very specific genre horror and I know, joe, you're a horror aficionado. I know you also host a podcast, a horror podcast, which you can tell us about, sure, postmortem, with Mick Garris, a horror legend, legendary horror director, and so you obviously have an affinity for that genre and that genre sort of lives and dies on its special effects on set and its visual effects in post, and particularly how they dovetail together. So, yeah, a few years back, joe was producing a film, an anthology series, called Nightmare Cinema. I'm the projectionist, the curator of 100 years of nightmares Trapped in a silver screen that never forgets. Welcome to my nightmare. And there was a sequence that involved extra terrestrial spiders that were attacking people, that came out of this meteor and were attacking people, and it was a. It was a big job and I was my company was one of the companies that that bid on it and for various reasons, we didn't win it. I mean, you don't win them all, obviously. And there Joe was not the only producer on the film. Had he been, then maybe we would have won it, but he had other producers that he needed to to also, you know, factor their, their network, their relationships with it would be affects people into the mix, and so it, you know it passed by, passed us by, which is fine. I have that recently had a chance to catch up with the film and it looks great. It's, it's a lot of fun. It's it's a kind of an update on Creep show, one of my, one of my favorites, from the, from the genre, from way back, and the spiders look great and you know to talk about. You know you could talk about that. Some of the challenges. I know you guys have practical spiders on set. You had a whole bunch of digital spiders got added to all of all of that sort of stuff.

Joe Russo: 28:58

Nightmare Cinema was a big challenge on the VFX front and a lot of it was for reasons we already talked about. Well, you know, in making sure you're engaging the VFX artists early on, if you can make sure they're present for when you're shooting, if you can make sure they're you know they're, you know they're there is involved early on and conceptually as possible, we kind of got hate to use the word bamboozled, but we kind of got bamboozled on this movie when it came to the VFX I mean movies almost five years old now I think we can talk about this. So you know, what happened was I had been trying to lobby for the company that my friend JJ was working at at that point. It was called Muse VFX and they're a big. They're a big vendor, they do a lot of big TV stuff and I had recently become friends with one of their most experienced artists there and he brought us in and they did a bid, they did a whole presentation and we really wanted to use them, mick really wanted to use them, but they were underbid by another VFX house that our financiers had worked with in the past and what I did not know was somebody owed somebody money and part of the reason we were funneling this job to them was because of that, and there was a lot of ill will between the financiers and this company and unfortunately Nightmare Cinema was the recipient of that kind of fractured relationship, let's say. And so I don't think that they were as engaged conceptually as they should have been, and when they were having issues on some of the other movies that they were working with this financier on, they kind of stopped work on Nightmare Cinema as a result, and so a lot of Nightmare Cinema got made in a bit of a VFX vacuum, so to speak. There's one segment that is an exception to this and that was David Slade's segment. In the movie he brought all of his own kind of VFX people to the mix who he'd worked with and they'd done Walking Dead and lots of other big, big shows. I think they might have done Black Mirror with him, if I remember correctly. But so his VFX are great because they were involved conceptually from the movie. They were involved in how the effects were going to augment the special effects on set, how they were going to change the landscape. I mean his segment of VFX look incredible. There are some segments in Nightmare Cinema where I think it's very clear that there was not a big preconceptualization going in and I think that those sequences suffer a bit for it. But there was a moment in time where Paul's right. One of the most ambitious sequences in the movie was the scene with the aliens. And we had no aliens and I really didn't want to go and have the conversation with Alejandro Briget of maybe they're just going to be invisible aliens. You know, maybe they're just going to be invisible aliens. So you know, and we knew that this was one of the best segments in the movie, we knew that we had to try to support it and but we knew we didn't have any money because basically all the money we had paid to this VFX company they took and they walked away with because they were owed so much money from the financiers already. So we had basically no money left. And you know, paul came in with an amazing bid for it and I wanted to push the work his way, but the reality was we just didn't have any money left and McGarris had a relationship with the VFX producer who was basically going to do it as a favor. So that's what happened. You know it was we needed to get bailed out by somebody and we didn't have any money. And then you know, free 50 was the right price, so so and they did it. And I mean these were guys, I mean really established VFX people. I wasn't like, you know, we got like what? Basically what happened was they had just done the the Neil DeGrasse Tyson show on Fox. God, what the hell was it? Cosmos, cosmos. They just done Cosmos and they made a ton of money off of that job. So they basically had the people in place and the money in place to just do this like fun little side thing.

Chris LaMont: 34:05

You know. So we basically shot said just one more shot.

Joe Russo: 34:12

But you know it was, it was. That's that's how, that's how our butts got saved on that, you know. So it was. It was really hard because I think, like there are there, you know, I think that segment turned out really well and I think David Slade's segment turned out really well, for you know the right reasons. I think some of the VFX and some of the other segments could have been better, but they were. They were really more a consequence of being left, you know, holding the bag by, you know, these financiers in this company, which we will not name.

Trailer: 34:48

No, if you want to go on IMDB, I'm sure you might figure it out.

Chris LaMont: 34:51

Yeah, it's kind of an extreme circumstance but these things happen.

Paul DeNigris: 34:54

You know there are. There are lots of personalities in our business and lots of lots of interesting characters who, who you know, find themselves in situations. That's all I can say. No-transcript. You know, I went and I did a short film right after an Amherst Cinema called Midnight Clear and it has a really big visual effects elements at the climax of the short.

Joe Russo: 35:18

And you know I made sure that my I made sure that JJ Chalupik and I were talking through storyboards that had a time that we both had a really strong idea of what it was going to look like, so that when he was on set supervising those shots, you know, it was lit the way it was we wanted it to be, it was framed the way we wanted it to be and I think, you know, even though that was a $12,000 short film, that VFX shot looks, you know, like a several hundred thousand dollar one because we did it right. So I try to take some of the mistakes we made on Nightmare Cinema and, and you know, apply them in a way that was was far more successful in the short and I and you know I learned a lot going through that experience that I will hopefully not make those mistakes again.

Chris LaMont: 36:23

Moving forward, yeah, joe, I remember on that picture I mean I think that was the one thing that you were saying and I agree with you it's like if that shot doesn't work, the whole movie doesn't work, and so that so much care was put into that by Joe and the team because literally the entire tone of the film, the emotional arc of the characters, everything that happened, that was the big payoff. And so you know, I mean visual effects, you know, can do a lot more than just, you know, replace a sign or whatever. I mean the crux of the of that short film, and it's an excellent film. And I'm glad, joe, by the way, that you did not reveal the content of that shot, so hopefully they can go to JoeRussoFilmscom, right, and they could watch, they could watch Midnight Clear right.

Joe Russo: 37:09

It's also available on Shutter right now too. But yeah, anyway, yeah, no, it's, it's. We're really proud of how that turned out and and but again, it went. It was because I had all this experience, you know, working on Shorter's JJ over the years. It's because I had, I had this nightmare experiment experience, pun intended, on our murder cinema, with the effects that that I was able to take all of that experience and apply it in a really meaningful way for the storytelling, you know. It's also why, when, you know, we turned around and shot a pair a couple of years ago and we called you and we were like, hey, we need this shot ready. It was an easy job because I was being conscious of, you know, what needed to be done. You know, yeah, yeah, that's great.

Paul DeNigris: 37:58

And JJ is the same VFX artist who did the Santa Claus piece that you were talking about, that you've been working with since college yeah, that's I mean. That's something I always told my students when I was teaching was. You know, this is an industry of relationships and networking. Look around the room the people that you're sitting in class with right now are the beginnings of your professional network. These are the people that you're going to work with again and again and again. I have friends from film school from 30 years ago that I still I still work with. You know it's, it's the reality. Once you find, once you find your tribe as a filmmaker, you, you tend to stick with them. You know, that's why we see, you know, christopher Nolan's and the Michael Mann's and the Martin Square Sages. They work with the same people over and over again because they develop that trust.

Joe Russo: 38:49

Yeah, there was almost between between that, that senior thesis project, you know, and and midnight clear, I mean there was not if there was a VFX shot in any of my shorts. He was my first call, you know, and and and he's. He did great work on on all that stuff so and it turned. I helped him get a couple jobs. So you know I did, I did too.

Chris LaMont: 39:12

Yeah.

Joe Russo: 39:16

Yeah, but I got him. I got him that job at Muse which got him out to LA and got to help launch, you know, the the. Now he's worked on huge TV shows, you know. So it's it's been, it's been great to kind of watch him. You know, blossom from from that. Great Sounds like I need to have him on. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Chris LaMont: 39:38

You can tell you all about working with Joe Russo, the true behind the scenes, behind this lovable facade that you see, you know on your screen in your head right now the true nightmare cinema, which is? Which is Joe. Anyway, just kidding, Moving on.

Paul DeNigris: 39:55

Why don't we switch gears? Since you guys are writers and producers and we've we've heard about your producing exploits on all pair and on the nightmare cinema, among other things let's let's switch gears to when you're at the conceptual stage, when you're writing a story, when you're writing a script. Are you? Are you when it comes to things like special effects you know, onset, makeup, gore, things like that or visual effects like this, this big moment in midnight, clear, yeah, are you thinking about that sort of stuff? Are you? Are you factoring that in when you write? Or are you? Are you writing pie in the sky? I'm going to write everything that I see in my head and then we'll figure out how to dial it back, or we'll figure out how to find the money for it. Or are you? Are you thinking you know this is how much we're going to be able to make this for, and so I have to. I have to tailor what's on the page to to make it as cost effective as possible.

Joe Russo: 40:53

I think it's project specific, you know. I mean, like, if we go in knowing, like when we got hired to write the Opera Nightmare, we knew we were going to have a teeny, tiny budget and a 14 day schedule, you know. So we wrote that story knowing that we had to minimize action sequences, we had to minimize visual effects elements. We had to, you know, like so. But I think when we're writing for ourselves and we're writing for you know, just try to turn out a cool spec screenplay. I would say it's more about what is the story call for. You know, if we're writing a big action movie, I think we can be a little bit more liberal with those elements. If we're writing what's ultimately going to be a relatively contained, minimally budgeted horror movie, I think we try to be a little bit more careful about some of those things. I think the other thing that we've learned while writing is a lot of the development people that you meet while you're, you know, fleshing this thing out into something that you can produce, don't necessarily understand visual effects and don't necessarily understand how much they cost. You know, like, for example, there's something we wrote right before the writer strike that we went back and forth with our reps about. We wanted to basically do what we knew was going to just be a set extension. You know, like we were going to have this wall that basically like the characters looked up and it like stretches up into infinity Not a hugely complex VFX shot but they read that and they go, oh my God, that reads so expensive, like, and it makes you go like, oh, they don't actually know the difference between like you know a huge explosion and that, or you know what I mean Like or a creature, and that it's been kind of interesting, the kind of, I think, over the years, navigate what they think is expensive and what isn't Right. Chris.

Chris LaMont: 43:15

Yeah, I think you know it's also depends on you know, the producers that you're talking to and what their scope of knowledge is as well. I mean you know like. So, joe, when I think about like visual effects and story, I remember the big debate was when we did the Unwelcome script and the big thing about Unwelcome is that there is a huge house fire. It's a contained movie that takes place in one house and the house had to catch on fire and we were like adamant that there was no other way that we could tell that story without the house catching on fire, because it all this allegory and everything that came comes back. And I remember the one producer who read that and immediately they just said it's too expensive to put a house on fire. And we knew, we knew, I mean, we knew it was gonna be some visual effects for sure, but it was like the cost of that, especially for a contained movie, it's like the cost of that we felt from a story perspective outweighed what we felt that a producer would need to pay to do it right, to do the story.

Joe Russo: 44:32

And I also was thinking too, my friend at that company, muse Stefan Broderick, he's like the TV fire guy, like he's like one of the best at fire in the business. So I was thinking, well, when we get the money to make this movie, I'm just gonna call him and he'll do it for the right price and we'll solve that issue, cause it really wasn't a huge. The rest of the movie was not a big VFX job and there was a lot of production design elements. I think that would have been augmented by VFX, but that was really the big VFX piece and trying to convince a producer who maybe had a couple of recent bad experiences with fire and VFX that it could be done, it could be done well and it could be done for a price, becomes a challenge. But I think ultimately you have to try to stay true to the narrative and I don't think you can compromise on that stuff because I think once you start changing the narrative to redo your budget. I think you know that's how we went from, I think what was a really interesting science fiction action movie in open source.

Chris LaMont: 45:45

I knew exactly where you were going with this.

Joe Russo: 45:48

And that became the one location movie, hard Kill. And so we've watched our sci-fi VFX, heavier ideas get cut to the bone and we've seen what happens and the results almost always is not a positive. So I think the better thing is get a really good artist in early, figure out what your shots are gonna be, storyboard them, maybe, do some animatics, like whatever you have to do, ahead of time so that when you get there and you shoot it it's going to be the cheapest and easiest way to do it. But I think again, like a lot of studio executives, because they don't have that tactical experience and maybe because they don't necessarily have the relationship an artist to an artist does, they can't guarantee those things and so they never wanna bet on those things. Does that make sense?

Paul DeNigris: 46:53

Sure does.

Joe Russo: 46:54

Yeah, so I think for us it's a mixed, but I think, ultimately, when we're writing for ourselves specifically, we're always trying to write the best version that we can and then, if that includes VFX elements, that includes VFX elements and we'll figure it out, you know.

Chris LaMont: 47:15

I agree. I mean it's just so important. I think we know that the VFX are going to be there. I mean the VFX, I mean they can do anything. You can do anything with VFX that your partner soul can create and put on the page. So for us it's more about let's get it out there, let's put it down, let's envision this, let's make it great for the audiences, let's make it great for the producers and the studio execs to be able to read it and get excited about the project. Get excited about that. And our hope, honestly just like Joe said, I mean is that, yeah, they're so enamored with the screenplay that they're not gonna worry about how much you gotta pay for it. You know Right, because eventually that will happen. But you know, reading a screenplay, a fresh screenplay for the first time, and reading that and experiencing that it's a special thing. And if you do it right, you know it can definitely lead to very magical places in someone's heart and soul. And we just know that, at the end of the day, that the VFX will always be there to support the artist's vision. And, yeah, it might be really, really complicated. I mean the stuff that we just figured out right now. It was another thing with the lava thing, or if they could do this lava set piece and we're like maybe it's too big, you know, maybe not. We realized that there were so many different things that were intertangled in that, that were resolved and started again from a big set piece where, like, why not do it? Why not keep this?

Joe Russo: 48:58

Because it tells the story in the best possible way that we can do and but again, I think we're also very pragmatic about the fact that a lot of you know this scene and this sequence. While it will be VFX heavy, a lot of it's going to be, you know, set extensions and changing elements that are already there. It's not going to be like creating a full on character or, you know, like and having them move and interact with people. It's more, you know, augmenting the location. And again, I think that's something that, like your average studio exec isn't necessarily going to know the difference in. But you know your visual effects artists and your and your, I think, savour VFX filmmakers are, and it's more just about being precise with your shooting, you know. And. But I think the other problem with VFX, like on a macro level and I think we're seeing this recently more and more and more with some of these really VFX heavy tent poles is, you know, these executives kind of like visual effects for one reason more than practical effects they're not locked into the thing. So what I mean by that is like if I shoot a head explosion or a monster or something on set, we're kind of limited to that thing. I mean, sure, vfx can augment it, but like that is the thing, whereas it's if it's a completely CG character or completely CG background. These execs can tinker and give notes on it pretty much up until like two or three weeks before release. I think that's why we're seeing so many people being like oh, these, these, you know this Marvel movie or that DC movie. The effects don't look as good. It's because they just keep to keep getting tinkered with, whereas I think you look at something like Avatar 2 and the VFX look incredible because you had James Cameron putting his foot down and saying this is the shot and we're gonna spend a year making it perfect. You know what I mean. So I think it's unfortunately how we're using. Vfx is right now, I think, more to a anxious fear driven execs advantage over the filmmakers and unfortunately, I think with AI now coming into to potentially augment and speed up the effects, that's only going to let them try more things and it's not gonna help them run out the clock any less. I think it's just gonna make more work and more choices and more options that they're gonna have to choose from. Maybe the physical work of a shot will get faster, but I think at the end of the day, they're still gonna take it down to the wire over a single time, you know.

Paul DeNigris: 52:07

Yeah, I mean the overall reliance on VFX and also this 11th hour noodling, right literally right up until the, you know, the week of release. Part of that is because VFX is not a unionized trade, right, so it's kind of the easy, the easy trade to abuse the hell out of. I know I know both of you, as WGA members, are keenly aware of, you know, the labor situation in the industry and all that, and that's a. That's a topic for another day. But but yeah, to some degree the VFX industry has been forced to, you know, kind of race to the bottom. You know we're all, we're all being asked to, you know, cut our bids but up our, our productivity, up our output, up the number of iterations that we give clients, and it's a, it's a bad scenario, it's. It's why we end up with, you know, weird, mark Ruffalo head floating on the Hulkbuster armor in Infinity War, right, yeah one of the biggest movies of all time and you then it's got some really dodgy VFX in it. I love my Marvel stuff, you know, but but still I look at it and I go there's some overworked and underpaid VFX artists in that, in the chain there, and that's why we end up with shots that don't look good. And unfortunately, those chickens are coming home to roost. We're seeing more and more tent poles that are just audiences are getting.

Joe Russo: 53:36

Audiences are getting wise to it. And the thing that was so frustrating to me was I was talking to an exec recently and they said something to the effect of well, it's the filmmakers who are just unfamiliar with VFX. And I, you know, I took kind of offense to that because I'm like or are you guys just having these filmmakers change these things over and over and over again? You know, and I would, I would, almost, I would bet nine out of ten times. That's the issue, more so than you know, because I think a director who is worth their weight will listen to their VFX artists. They're not going to if they don't know what they're doing. You know, I don't think they're going to, as I want to believe that I don't think they're going to tell a VFX artist how to do something. It's nine times out of ten it's gonna be the other way around. You know it's, we can do this. Okay, I would love it to look like X. This is how we accomplish it, you know it needs to be a symbiotic relationship.

Paul DeNigris: 54:47

Right, it needs to be you as the filmmaker, saying, here's the thing I want to accomplish, paul, how do we do it? And I'm me saying, okay, here's where our limitations are, here's how we can work around that, here's, yeah, here's what we can, we can kind of figure out. Here's a system that we can you know, engineer to make this happen. And that's why that's what James Cameron and the Avatar movies are so successful. Because he is, he is both sides of that equation. He's a VFX guy by trade as well as a visionary director, so he can, he can look at it from both sides and say this is what I want to do, and I know this is what I have to communicate to my, my VFX team to make it happen yep but it doesn't happen without that, without those strong relationships, without if the director is not in a position to tell their execs know, like James Cameron is.

Joe Russo: 55:36

I think that's where you find yourself in this never-ending example of iterations. I saw a funny joke that went around a couple months ago about you know, ai and it was like well, if AI is completely dependent on the clients telling it's what it wants, it will, it'll never be functional because they never know what they want right and, and you know, I think that's why, you know, a director ideally has some idea of what he or she wants, and and it's their job, just like it's their job to pull a performance out of an actor or to, you know, pull a great script out of a writer or whatever, whatever piece of the crew they're working with, that the the biggest part is they have to communicate their vision right to the artists that they're working with. And if you have an exec who is behind that director, stepping on that vision every step of the way, I think that's how we find ourselves in situations where these execs are getting really, really, really overworked yeah, and you know that's why I choose to work, to work for independent filmmakers predominantly.

Paul DeNigris: 56:53

You know I've worked on studio stuff, I've worked on network stuff, but where I get the most fulfillment as a visual effects artist, visual effects supervisor, whatever is working with filmmakers like you guys, who, who are passionate, who are committed, who are focused on the story, not on the focus group, not on the, you know, pixel fucking, as we call it. You know, just just giving notes for the sake of giving notes. You know it is where the VFX artists can be partners. Right, we're helping you tell the story. We're not just a, you know a commodity that can be, you know, swapped in and out. It's, it's there's a, there's a creative partnership here and we're helping you tell the story. And that that's why I'm making a podcast called VFX for Indies and not, you know, vfx inside the studio system. There's tons of podcasts out there about chat, you know about the, you know the VFX of Marvel and the VFX of Star Wars. We don't need more of that. You know. What I want is to empower the filmmakers who are outside the system to realize that there are lots of ways that they can use VFX to tell their stories to expand their canvas without killing their budget, and they just have to be smart about it and apply a lot of the things that you've talked about in terms of preparation and communication, and oh, I'd like to add one more thing real fast and this is speaking specifically to the indie filmmakers is that and this goes for, I think, everyone who does film is that there are two things that no filmmaker ever has enough of, and it's time and money.

Chris LaMont: 58:27

And when you're working, you know, with a budget, especially as an independent filmmaker, you know the dollars are tight. And if you haven't done and worked with a visual effects professional like Paul, you know, basically, you are paying on a shot-for-shot basis, and having that and understanding that in your budgeting, I think, needs to you need to be careful, filmmaker, because you know something like a cable that's sitting in your in a shot that needs to be erased. That costs money. So maybe it's a lot smarter to look through the camera and make sure there isn't a cable in the shot or the boom shadow isn't there, because you are working with finite resources and they aren't that. They're not studio money, they're not millions and millions of dollars. However, the other thing that you have to remember is that, as a filmmaker, that you also don't, if you don't have a lot of money, you know, is it what? Is it good, fast and cheap? Right guys, you get to only take two right. So if you want your movie to be good and you want to be done fast, right, it's not going to be cheap. If you want your movie to be done fast, right and cheap, it's not going to be good. But if you have and understand how important it is to allocate your time, because when Paul I know that this is a lot you, because you do love independent filmmakers so much, and when you do work with them, but the idea that you can't expect things to happen on a small budget amazingly quickly, you have to be cognizant of the visual effects people that you're working with and if they're giving you a break on a rate that it may not happen as fast as you want it to be, and so it's really kind of understanding that. You know, and I heard, you know, ron Howard complains he never has enough time or has enough money for his movies as well. So understand that if you want it to be, you know, good, and you want to be done cheap, it's not going to be done fast, all right. So you have to understand what your limitations are and you know, yeah, if you want things, if you want to throw money at stuff to make things happen quickly. You absolutely can do that, but especially with visual effects and let's be honest, I mean when you're talking about the willing suspension of disbelief visual effects are the most important thing. Bad sci-fi you know bad sci-fi when you see it, because it's bad visual effects. That's why, when Star Wars initially came out the first Star Wars in 77 the effects were so good that people bought into the whole movie. Anyone can spot bad visual effects in a heartbeat. So being able to understand that you need to allow enough time, you need to budget accordingly, I think those are the most important things, because at the end of the day, if the effects aren't good, no one's buying what you're selling. But you also have to work within budget as well, that's.

Paul DeNigris: 1:01:22

That's a great place to stop. So, gentlemen, what's up next for you? What, what projects do you have coming out, and where can people find out more about what you're up to?

Joe Russo: 1:01:31

well, the big thing that we're facing at the time of this recording is the WGA is on strike against the major motion picture studios and streamers, and Chris and I are part of that strike. So, you know, we've got a couple projects that we're ready to try it. We've been working with producers on that'll. You know we'll get back to when this is over, but I think our immediate focus is just, you know, getting getting through the strike so that we have we all have jobs moving forward and and there's an industry moving forward because it all starts on the page.

Paul DeNigris: 1:02:13

It doesn't matter how how well I push pixels around, if you guys don't give me stories to help tell as feature film screenwriters, you know a lot of the work we do is on spec.

Chris LaMont: 1:02:24

It's us coming up with an idea on our own, us putting in the three to four months to be able to bring that script to a place where we're happy with it, that eventually you could go to market, and so that's what we're working on right now is we've got some spec scripts that we're working on that when this strike ends, we will be able to take it out to you know, producers will be able to take it out. We have, you know, producer attached to one of them, but for us it's, you know, we're still staying razor sharp in regards to being creative. Being a, being a screenwriter on strike doesn't necessarily mean that we're not writing. So by the hopefully by the 400th time that people hear this, we're not gonna be on strike anymore and we'll have some really great things to tell you in our follow-up podcast that I'm sure that you'll be. You'll be figuring out as soon as we done because you this was such a great to conversation for us. Paul, thank you so much for giving us an opportunity to talk with you and your viewers and audience yeah, thanks so much for imparting your wisdom to to the audience. I really appreciate it our pleasure you know you got you know, joe, joe Russo tweets.

Paul DeNigris: 1:03:28

Joe Russo tweets. Yes, joe is a prolific, prolific tweeter. And also, if you really want to be entertained, ask him sometime about his connection to the Marvel Joe Russo, because he's not that guy. What?

Chris LaMont: 1:03:42

do you?

Joe Russo: 1:03:54

mean Marvel Joe.

Paul DeNigris: 1:03:55

Russo. There you go. Thanks so much for joining us on today's episode of the VFX for Indies podcast. You can find transcripts, images and other cool stuff at our website, vfx4indiescom. If you enjoyed the show, please subscribe, follow, like, rate, review, comment on either YouTube or your favorite podcast app. On behalf of everyone at FoxTrad X-ray, I'm chief pixel pusher, paul DeGrasse, and we all thank you so much for your support of the show. See you next time.