SXSW Panel Part 1: Visual Effects in Indie Film? Yes, You Can.
Can indie films really afford good VFX? Absolutely. In this special episode of VFX for Indies, we sit down with an all-star panel of visual effects veterans who presented at South by Southwest 2025, discussing the very topic indie filmmakers wrestle with every day—how to make visual effects work on real-world budgets.
Join host Paul DeNigris (Foxtrot X-Ray) and guests Laura Skowronski Nattam, Joey Cade, Shaina Holmes, and Laurie Powers Going as they share stories from the trenches, insider advice, and actionable tips on working smarter with visual effects.
📚 We also spotlight the new book Visual Effects for Indie Filmmakers by Laurie and Shaina—a must-read guide filled with practical insights from decades of VFX experience. Use code VisEffects2025 for 25% off at Routledge through August 18!
💡 Topics covered:
How indie filmmakers really use VFX
Why planning early with your VFX team saves money
The truth about green screen suits and "fixing it in post"
When to use stock assets vs. custom builds
What to do before you shoot that phone screen scene
🎟️ Whether you're just breaking into indie filmmaking or a seasoned pro trying to stretch your budget, this episode is packed with useful takeaways.
👉 Watch Part 2 of this discussion next week — and don't forget to subscribe for more episodes like this one.
🔗 Book Discount and Links:
📖 Visual Effects for Indie Filmmakers | Code: VisEffects2025 https://www.routledge.com/Visual-Effects-for-Indie-Filmmakers-A-Guide-to-VFX-Integration-and-Artist-Collaboration/Holmes-PowersGoing/p/book/9781032282060
📖 Visual Effects for Indie Filmmakers | Amazon Affiliate Link https://amzn.to/4jrVMwX
🔗 Find out more about all our panelists at: https://linktr.ee/VFXforIndies
Transcript
Paul DeNigris (00:00)
We're talking with an all-star team of veteran producers, supervisors, and artists who presented a panel at South by Southwest 2025 titled Visual Effects in Indie Film? Yes, you can. On this episode of VFX for Indies.
Welcome to VFX for Indies, a podcast about the intersection of visual effects and independent filmmaking. I'm your host, Paul DeNigris, VFX artist, filmmaker and CEO of Boutique visual effects shop, Foxtrot X-Ray.
With me today is an incredible panel of guests who, as I mentioned, presented at South by Southwest 2025 on the very same topics we discuss here on every episode. Let's welcome to the podcast, Laura Skowronksi Nattam Joey Cade, Shaina Holmes, and Laurie Powers-Going.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (01:00)
S'up y'all?
Paul DeNigris (01:02)
On this show, our goal is to bring on guests like these to share their insights into visual effects and film production without going too deep into the weeds of tech talk with the goal of educating filmmakers who are relatively new to using VFX. If you like what we're doing here, please like and subscribe to stay updated as we release new episodes. And you can find our back catalog of episodes at VFX for Indies.com. My connection to this esteemed group is through Laura Skowronski-Natham.
with whom I have worked for the last five or six years and who joined Foxtrot X-Ray as a VFX producer after a stint at Moontower VFX in Austin, Texas. So I'm gonna pass the baton to Laura to introduce herself and then ask Shaina, Laurie and Joey to do the same. So Laura, the audience a bit about yourself, your education and experience and how you came to the VFX world.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (01:48)
All right, well, I'll get us started. My name is Laura Skowronski Nattam and ⁓ I have always loved art and animation growing up. ⁓ Grew up on the Don Bluth films, Disney films. I always tinkered with computers, pulled apart my family computer when I was really young. ⁓ And then of course got into CG animation as I got into school. And I tend to be very generalist friendly. I have that art interest and the tech interest.
That just has predisposed me to wanting to tackle various tasks. ⁓ And I tend to gravitate then towards smaller studios where you wear a lot of hats. So I like developing that understanding of the process and the timeline, the pipeline of each individual place that I'm working with and the team that I'm working with. ⁓ And I absorb
a lot of different responsibilities. you know, I'm a VFX producer, but I came up in 3D animation. That was what I went to school to do. ⁓ But I got into VFX planning and spotting for needs. I understand timelines, so I'm able to distill that information into a meticulous bid. I understand...
⁓ everyone who's on board and how to break down the tasks and assignments and ingest things and relay them to the team, relay them back to the client. So that's how I ended up getting into VFX producing. was like, started as an animator, did a little animation production, then also did a little VFX production. And that's how I got into where I am right now. So right now I am mostly producing.
But I love to still animate meaningful content whenever I get the chance.
Paul DeNigris (03:39)
Awesome. Thanks for being here, Laura. Laura and I talk every day, just not always in the context of a podcast. ⁓
Joey Cade (03:44)
No.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (03:46)
This is all new to me.
Laurie Powers Going (03:48)
Yeah.
Paul DeNigris (03:50)
So Joey, how about you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to be in the VFX industry.
Joey Cade (03:57)
I think that I would be different from the rest of the group because I came into this industry basically from the side. I did not go to university for anything to do with film. actually was raised as a film buff. I was raised by film fiends. So my parents would take us to serious movies even when we were quite young, which was a strange thing. But whatever, it made me a lover of film.
And so, but I always thought that if I worked in film, probably wouldn't enjoy it. Like it would ruin the magic or something. So I literally never looked at that. was, I had a degree in history. I worked at the Texas House of Representatives. I wandered the world as a backpacker for years. And then literally my neighbor brought me in on set on something. She needed a PA one day. So I ended up in film industry. I was in live action for years here in Dallas. I lived in New York and LA for film. And then I
fell into visual effects as well because on set I was working for a director and I start chatting with the VFX guys and I ended up spinning the entire show like standing next to them and like following what they were doing. I was fascinated and got invited. That was RealFX. I got invited over for a party and then poof, I was working at RealFX. ⁓ So yeah, so it was basically once I was in an animation and visual effects studio that I started to learn about that whole process. So I've never been a creative. I've never worked on the box.
⁓ I've always been more of a producer and executive producer. So I'm definitely the, of the mindset of like managing the studios. So I'm thinking about things like risk and the types of projects we want to bring in, you know, what makes money, what loses money. Cause you know, VFX are going to do one or the other and losing money can happen, right? It's very common. So making sure that we're taking work that brings in money.
Laurie Powers Going (05:40)
You
Paul DeNigris (05:40)
Yeah.
Joey Cade (05:47)
was something that I've always focused on. And then I now put some of my background in like cause work into production because I'm producing a bunch of cause related ⁓ content. So yeah, but I'm also a professor now teaching, producing visual effects and animation. So it's amazing. And I love this industry. I love how creative it is, even though I'm not the person on the box. So it's great.
Paul DeNigris (06:12)
Fantastic proof as always that your career in film is all about connections, right? Yeah. Shaina, how about you? Tell us a little bit about yourself, what you're up to and how you got here.
Joey Cade (06:18)
Absolutely. Mm-hmm. 100%.
Shaina Holmes (06:26)
⁓ So I am a visual effects supervisor, producer, and artist. So kind of a mix of everything. And I generally work on feature film and episodic TV shows. ⁓ So I went to traditional film school, learned on 16 millimeter. There really wasn't anything digital when I was in school. So we had to digitize things to get into the avid and edit by the time we were seniors.
It was our big deal. We only had two AVIDs. And then, so when I left film school, I was always into math and science. And I felt like the craft of visual effects really fit into that. Since everything we do in visual effects is related to physics and biology and like coordinates.
Joey Cade (06:58)
Thank
Shaina Holmes (07:26)
everything like that. ⁓ Visual Effects is where I started and it's where I've been ever since. So I moved to Los Angeles after I graduated and started as a visual effects artist at a small, independent, I would say, visual effects vendor. And that's where I met Laurie, who you'll meet in a sec. ⁓ And I was there for about 10 years and really learned on the job.
And that's kind of how you did it back then. Apprenticeships and mentorships is how you kind of learned. ⁓ It was too expensive to shoot on film and digitize it yourself. ⁓ So learning at a facility that actually did have the computer for you, like it's so interesting today that everyone has a laptop and can do everything on their own. We couldn't do that back then. ⁓
So I was an artist for a while and I started to struggle with not being in on the conversations with clients and hearing their feedback directly. So to get more client interaction, I transitioned into a post-producer role. So I moved to New York City around the time of the writer's strike in 2007, 2008.
So New York became kind of the big hub for the transition out of LA. ⁓ So I worked at the largest company in the world. So I went from a really small company to a really large company. So I worked at Deluxe New York, which is now Company 3.
⁓ so I created workflows and managed teams for post-production from dailies to conform to color, to final deliverables. And I kind of got a better understanding of where visual effects fit into the whole pipeline. ⁓ which working as an artist, you kind of don't understand what happens after you work on something and then it leaves and then you see it in the theater and you're like,
That's not what I did. so now I know. ⁓ So I then, after I was working there, I transitioned into visual effects supervising both on set and in studio and visual effects producing. ⁓ And that was at same company, but different divisions. So Encore and Method, which is now Framestore.
Um, so after doing New York city for a while, then I was kind of called by my alma mater to start teaching. And I kind of was burnt out by the industry at that time and was looking for another change. And this was a really good opportunity. So ever since 2016, I've been kind of wearing many hats of teaching full time, but also I have my own company.
So I have my students who I train, who join me at my company, and then we work on independent features that are shooting in New York. So I teach visual effects and post-production at Syracuse University. And like I said, I work with a lot of emerging filmmakers in indie productions there. And then this will transition into Laurie. ⁓
We both have been kind of on a similar journey and ⁓ work with similar clientele. And we found we were getting like the same questions again and again from them. And we decided to write a book. So we did that last year, came out and I will transition to her to talk more about her journey first before we get into the book.
Paul DeNigris (11:31)
Great.
Laurie Powers Going (11:32)
Uh, yeah, so it's interesting because I was at a film festival this weekend and someone asked me if I've always wanted to do visual effects. And I was like, no, because when I grew up, I grew up like in this tiny town in West Texas where there was like 21 people in my graduating class. And the idea of like working in the film industry was just so alien. You know, I would never have thought of.
So I actually also have a degree in history like Joey and I also worked at the Texas Senate for a brief time before I went to say what.
Joey Cade (12:06)
⁓ Painful.
It's painful. I don't recommend it.
Laurie Powers Going (12:12)
It was kind of cool though to learn your way around all the underground, you know, tunnels and offices and stuff. But ⁓ yeah, so that was a very brief thing before I ended up working at the Weekly Alternative Newspaper here and they got an internship in graphic design, which is kind of funny because I had actually wanted to study art to start with, but people talked me out of it. So I studied history and then I ended up interning my way into an art job.
and working in production and then working into graphic design, you know. But then as part of working at the weekly newspaper, I got like free tickets to movies and movie festivals and just so many things, you know, and to go out and meet filmmakers. And so then that's when I think I really caught the bug, you know. Plus it's hot in Texas. So like all the art theaters and stuff here, I was just going to like all the independent movie theaters and spending the summer sitting in a cold theater watching movies by myself.
And so pretty soon I was just planning to go back to school. I was like, you know, how can I kind of combine my now art career, my budding art career with going back to school and studying film? So I went to Vancouver Film School and studied animation, 3D animation and visual effects. And then I went out to LA as did Shaina and did a couple of internships there, starting with
I thought I wanted to do matte painting, you know, digital matte painting. And I did that briefly before I got hired at the same place ⁓ where Shaina eventually got hired. And because I knew the compositing software, sort of, and worked my way up there as a compositor. you know, then I guess they say the rest is history. But then over time, as I became like a senior compositor and compositing supervisor and that kind of thing, I also
Paul DeNigris (13:52)
Thank you.
Laurie Powers Going (14:06)
got my degree, my MFA in screenwriting. I decided I wanted to do more on-set work. I was doing a lot of like just short film and indie work ⁓ when I was in LA as well and doing theater there because I did acting theater in high school. So I just decided to do that again as well. when
VFX sort of started becoming a mobile career, you know, with all the incentives. So I kind of just followed that around the world, ⁓ moving back closer to home. I got a job in Louisiana as my parents got older and then eventually moved back to Austin where I met Laura when we were working at Mighty Coconut ⁓ before it transitioned to it in completely gaming studio they used to do visual effects.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (14:54)
Woo.
I've been here ever since, but then especially once I got back to
Laurie Powers Going (15:02)
And I've been here ever since, then especially once I got back to Austin,
I really dove into more independent filmmaking. So now I am very much involved on that end and working with independent filmmakers in doing visual effects, but also making my own content. ⁓ But yeah, but in working, especially in Austin, it's like such a hub for
independent filmmakers and student filmmakers with the University of Texas film program here in particular and other schools that are also producing film and just the sheer number of indie filmmakers in the city looking for visual effects. And I know I was talking to Shaina and we were like, there are just so many people who are not exposed to visual effects as filmmakers. As film students, you learn all about
Paul DeNigris (15:36)
you
Laurie Powers Going (15:50)
how to make films, but not how to integrate visual effects. And it's a prominent aspect of filmmaking these days. It's like, even if it's a fix it shot in post, know, fix it in post, that's still a visual effect and people do not know how to go about it. So yeah, so we ended up writing this book, Visual Effects for Indie Filmmakers, ⁓ plus a subtitle that Shaina can tell you. look, Laura has one.
Paul DeNigris (16:01)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (16:18)
Do
y'all have your copy? I have it right here.
Paul DeNigris (16:18)
Look.
Joey Cade (16:20)
It's
at my office desk, but yes, I do.
Paul DeNigris (16:22)
Laura
is holding up a copy in front of her camera.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (16:25)
Hehehehehe
Joey Cade (16:26)
Thank
Shaina Holmes (16:26)
Our biggest
fans are here.
Joey Cade (16:29)
Yeah
Paul DeNigris (16:30)
yeah, so tell me more about the book. ⁓ You know, where where can people find it? ⁓ You know, how long did it take to write? Just give me the give me the the elevator speech about the about the.
Laurie Powers Going (16:43)
You know, as far as how long it took to write it, I was surprised how fast we wrote it. I think we got the contract in March and we had to have it delivered by November, which is a really short time span for getting a book like this written. But it was also kind of easy because we weren't doing research. We were just writing from our brains. know, this is just content that we have been repeating for years. And it was just a matter of getting it out.
and writing it in complete sentences for a book.
Shaina Holmes (17:17)
Yeah, it kind of felt like our life story of our career here with like a little bit to look up about like 422 color space, that kind of stuff. ⁓
Laurie Powers Going (17:31)
Yeah,
some of the technical aspects of color space we had to kind of reach out for, but I think the rest of it was just a brain dump.
Paul DeNigris (17:41)
Everybody struggles with color space, I think, unless you're a colorist. Yeah, it's one of the.
Laurie Powers Going (17:43)
Yeah, yes. Yeah.
Joey Cade (17:46)
Yeah.
Shaina Holmes (17:48)
Well, that's of the,
sorry. That's kind of the nice thing about the book is that we have interviews with ⁓ other people who are potentially either not in visual effects, but they work with visual effects or they collaborate with visual effects. So we have colorists, we have conform editors, we have stunts, we have writers. So we've
Joey Cade (18:11)
What's up?
Shaina Holmes (18:15)
kind of got it covered producers and as well as artists themselves. so visual effects people and non visual effects people and how either they've been ⁓ stuck and visual effects have gotten them out of it or they didn't do things the way that was best for their workflow and they learned from it. ⁓
learn from their mistakes.
Laurie Powers Going (18:44)
Yeah, we
interviewed several filmmakers and producers who, you know, used visual effects maybe for the first time and then on a later project and talking about how they wish they had used visual effects more effectively the first time or something like that. Because I think that it's really important to understand that mistakes are made and you can learn from them. And I think sometimes we learn from mistakes.
even more so than somebody telling us how to do something right the first time.
Paul DeNigris (19:15)
that is the reason why this podcast exists. It's the, know, I'm reacting to the same things that you're seeing, the same things that prompted you to write the book, the recurring themes of ⁓ filmmakers who just, they don't know they're intimidated, they're scared. They are unsure of what they can actually expect VFX to do for them, all of that sort of stuff. so yeah, we're, we're, we're all sort of working in the same.
in the same niche and have the ⁓ same goals, To not only do fun, interesting, visually cool work, but also to support indies and to help them achieve their visions and use our tool set as just another thing that helps them tell their story. And I have to assume that this is ⁓ a lot of the same ground that you covered in your South By panel. So let's talk about that.
Tell me about the experience of doing a panel at South by and ⁓ you know, I'm a little jealous cause I also submitted a panel topic to South by and did not get selected, but the four of you did. So, ⁓ so let, let us live vicariously through you. ⁓ Tell us, tell us about the whole process.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (20:26)
you
Laurie Powers Going (20:29)
you
Joey Cade (20:31)
you
Laurie Powers Going (20:35)
Well, I guess I'll start because I submitted the panel originally. ⁓ Shaina and I had talked about it for some time, you know, because we wrote the book and we wanted to also submit a panel kind of based on the same topic. then Joey and I were in, we're both part of the Visual Effects Society, Texas edition, whatever it's called, Texas section.
Joey Cade (21:02)
Yeah.
Laurie Powers Going (21:03)
⁓ So I had gotten to know her really well and as a producer I thought, we were kind of interested in making it an all-female panel, although we didn't want to make it about women in visual effects. It was just kind of something that we were thinking about. - having women in visual effects represented just talking about visual effects, you know. We also wanted to have, make sure that as
Laura Skowronski Nattam (21:27)
We also wanted to make sure that as
Laurie Powers Going (21:31)
a panel, we had people from different aspects of visual effects. So whereas Shaina comes from education, she also comes from compositing background and producing and supervising. But Joey very much comes from a producing background and
Laura Skowronski Nattam (21:31)
a panel we had people from different aspects. So whereas Shaina comes from education, she also comes from the housing background and producing and supervising. But Joey very much comes from a producing background and
Laurie Powers Going (21:49)
much more commercial producing. Laura, of course, is our 3D person, very knowledgeable in 3D. And then I am
also compositing and also I'm an indie filmmaker, so I come from that aspect as well. I'm like, what do I do? But so we felt like we had a pretty diverse panel as far as like expertise. We wanted to cover our bases there. So it was just a matter of getting everybody together. Obviously, I already said I knew Laura through working together. So once we gathered the panel, it was just a matter of submitting.
⁓ And I know that when I was bringing everybody's bios together and we were making a kind of a little demo reel to demonstrate some of our work, I was just like, at first I was like, you know, panel to South by Southwest, you'll never get in, blah, blah, And when I got it all together and was ready to submit it, I was like, guys, this looks amazing. We look like we know what we're doing.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (22:50)
Kind of felt like
we were forming a little company or something because, you know, we got together on a handful of Zoom calls. You know, we're all very busy. It's amazing how challenging it was to get four of us together on a few Zoom calls, you know, like maybe once every other month or something. And from the acceptance of the ⁓ panel ⁓ submission, you know, it's not that many months. It's just a few months until
Laurie Powers Going (22:53)
Yeah!
Laura Skowronski Nattam (23:16)
until South By. So we only had a few calls, ⁓ yeah, we were real diligent about making sure we all felt like we represented our voice of our ⁓ area of expertise and made sure that that was the most forward thing that we were expressing. And as Laurie said, it wasn't about being women, but that was definitely a
Laurie Powers Going (23:38)
Woof!
Laura Skowronski Nattam (23:44)
a perk and something that I think means something to all of us. So one thing we did cover, of course, was the various types of VFX. So like, as Laurie said, I covered like the animation and CGI, bit, computer generated imagery quite a bit. you know, obviously, you know, characters, vehicles, props, background, live set extensions, ⁓ full scale environments. ⁓ Of course, you know, we covered
you know, 2D and 3D tracking in order to properly place the CGI into live action plates ⁓ of obviously particle simulations. We have like water, fire, smoke, explosions, apparitions, like ghosts and such, blood splatter ⁓ that's got to interact in a certain way that can't be done practically. ⁓ Beauty and makeup, digital makeup that is, that can be painted in ⁓ or CG augmentation, you know, sometimes
a significant injury like somebody gets their arm cut off or, you know, ⁓ rotoing and painting out a limb and adding gore ⁓ or special appendages. you of course, very occasionally we'll get the lucky opportunity to work on a fully digital CG character. That's my love. ⁓ And then you've got motion capture and you've got special tracking tools ⁓ and otherwise animation. But it's not too common with the indie ⁓ budget. ⁓
films, Characters can be like 50 grand easily. So ⁓ many indies tend to focus their needs on layering stock or practical effects integration into their live action comps called compositing, course, ⁓ and augmentation and stuff. we set out talking about the types of VFX and wanted to make sure that
people who were new independent filmmakers knew what's out there, because so many things are invisible, like the paint and clean up. And I think that's what, Joey, you talked about that a little bit, right?
Joey Cade (25:48)
can't remember, but I do know that basically the main thing that it's the fix it in post stuff that in my place I've been in the industry, feels like that I've dealt with the most. I think I talked about a series, it was an Amazon Prime series. They came to us, we bid the entire show, ⁓ it was awarded, we start production and like...
Laura Skowronski Nattam (25:48)
Hahaha!
Joey Cade (26:14)
literally they had already filmed like three episodes. So they just start seeing, you know, the dailies and they start telling us, hey, we're so confused because it's in Austin, we're filming in Austin and they assumed that Austin would be green year round, like in LA or something. And so they were like, it's just so brown and we need it's summer in the, in the show and it's winter while we're filming it, we need it to be green. And we were like, hold on a second. Are y'all asking to green the entire show?
Yes, they were asking to green the entire show and we were like, okay, we'll bid that. Right? And so we bid it and they're of course like double what we're already paying. We're like, yes, you want to green the whole show. Of course they actually put the whole show on hiatus and then started over again. But yeah, so lots of fix-it stuff. That's definitely, I would say the majority of stuff that I get because
Most indie filmmakers may not have read yet Laurie and Shaina's book. And so they don't know how to set things up, right? Or they don't plan, you know, to frame their shot so that they're not catching all the wires, you know, or whatever they want to later remove. They haven't set up for it. So it's always fix it in post. is a lot of the mindset that I end up with bidding.
Shaina Holmes (27:30)
And I took on the role of moderator for the panel because I've probably had the most experience doing panels here. So I've done Sundance and I am on the board of the Women in VFX Global ⁓ Community and lead all or create and lead all of those virtual panels and events we have there.
plus every week with, I have a post-production group and so I lead about 30 of those a year. So I've got a lot of experience. ⁓ So my main goal, also I kind of ⁓ overlap what the other three do a little bit. So I was able to kind of like piece it all together as moderator. And I think...
Paul DeNigris (28:24)
Sure.
Shaina Holmes (28:27)
One of my main goals is something we all showed up a little early and went to a few panels before ours. And we were noticing that the sessions are so short that the Q &A seemed to always get cut off. ⁓ So our goal was to kind of introduce ourselves.
how are we connected to visual effects, kind of like set the scene of what kind of questions we could accept and what we're trying to help with. And then it really became a audience interaction, like what are your problems and how can we help you? So that was kind of what ended up being our goal after we were there for a few days. ⁓
It was kind of like what our purpose was of being there.
Joey Cade (29:26)
And you set up a Discord, so we actually built community from it. know, people joined our Discord, continued to ask questions. So I thought that was really cool to make it more interactive and make it go on. That's cool. Well done.
Paul DeNigris (29:38)
that's great.
That's great. What kind of questions did you get from the audience?
Laura Skowronski Nattam (29:39)
I think I...
Laurie Powers Going (29:43)
of the big questions we always get is how much does visual effects cost? And as you know, there's no answer to that because it depends on so many factors. And one thing that I was talking about during the panel was how important pre-production is and how important it is to bring visual effects into pre-production. And I think a lot of people don't realize that you can talk to
Paul DeNigris (29:48)
Hehe.
Laurie Powers Going (30:08)
a visual effects person in pre-production without them charging you out the butt. They're not going to charge you. A lot of people will just look at your script for free and help you out and talk you through it. They're not going to charge you for that. They can give you a proposal probably for free ⁓ without any expectations necessarily. They're going to hope that you come back with your visual effects in post.
You can definitely get that advice for free in pre-production usually. ⁓ And I think people don't know that. So a lot of people wait until post-production and then it's too late because they've already shot everything wrong. big factor that we were talking about is cost. How much does it cost? And it's like, well, bring your script in and pre-production and let's talk about that because that's really the only way you're going to get the answer to that.
And I think one guy had asked, know, well, I think I overpaid for visual effects, you know, I, it doesn't sound like you necessarily did, but it's hard to tell, you know, because there's no standard for that. One person actually asked us like what as a DP, I really liked this question because they said, you know, they're studying to be a DP.
a director of photography and what could they do to assist visual effects and I thought that was really cool because you don't usually get people you know yeah exactly you know asking you know what can I do and I think our answer to that was you know like we there's a lot of things you can consider but ultimately you have to do what's right for the photography but you know certainly
you making sure your lighting is proper on your green screens or whatever you're shooting, working with your visual effects supervisor and making sure we get the data, camera data and all that kind of stuff. And I think Shaina mentioned, yeah, there you go. Yeah, don't shut down before you get your clean plates and stuff like that. So we had some really good questions, I think.
Shaina Holmes (32:06)
Clean plates.
Paul DeNigris (32:15)
So for the audience who doesn't know what a clean plate is, can one of you define that for us?
Laurie Powers Going (32:20)
Shaina? Shaina said it.
Shaina Holmes (32:22)
think we go.
Clean plate is when you need to remove something from your shot. So remove something from your image. Usually it's something that's maybe your lead actress disappears and turns into a bat and then flies away or something like that. Because that's the movies we all make.
⁓ when that person disappears, they don't magically disappear. We don't do the Bewitched, like everyone pause, edit, cut, they run away and then continue the scene. ⁓ so, ⁓ what do we put behind this person when they disappear? So we need to shoot the same, ⁓ the same shot again, ⁓ with the same focus, same lighting, same.
⁓ camera movement if there was any without that foreground person there. So we have something to replace them
Paul DeNigris (33:31)
Yeah, it's amazing how often filmmakers don't realize they need to shoot clean plates. then once, Laura and I have had this experience, once we tell a client that we're gonna need clean plates for shot X, Y, and Z, now they wanna shoot clean plates for everything. And they ask us, and I get the call from set. Hey, do we need a plate for this? I'm like, well, when in doubt, shoot a clean plate, but I'm not really sure, because I'm not there.
Joey Cade (33:50)
Yeah.
Paul DeNigris (34:01)
Cause they can never afford to have us on set.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (34:04)
Yeah, if it...
Shaina Holmes (34:04)
But even
a boom removal, you need a clean plate, like equipment removal, all that kind of stuff.
Paul DeNigris (34:06)
Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (34:11)
Yeah, to some extent that stuff can get painted out, you know, but that's more time consuming if you don't have the data that, you know, the visual data of what goes behind there. If it's just more ceiling, you know, you can pretty much replicate that without worrying about it. But, you know, you have a piece of art or very specific background, like you need to capture that. And the easiest, when you have to do the clean plates, I mean,
talking to independent feature filmmakers, ⁓ it's best to do those shots that you really need a clean plate. It's best if you can get that a static locked off camera. ⁓ It's just better for the whole process and the expense of everything. But if you have to move a camera, there is motion control where you've got like a camera attached to an armature.
and it's doing the same movement, you can have it done multiple times, but that's often way too expensive for an independent production. So ⁓ in the instance that you have a moving camera through the scene, there may be a way to clean plate that where you're replicating the movement as best as possible, but you'll still want some static plates as well to support your visual effects team so that they can pick and choose.
what pixels they need, what focal length, all that sort of thing. ⁓ So more is better, but then there's the whole question of what all gets sent to your VFX team as well, because if you're transferring all that online, there's a cost associated with that. So you don't want to capture the universe and then say, here you go, VFX team, and now you need to have your VFX team sift through.
you know, so, so many gigabytes of or terabytes of data and hours long footage, you know, it's all, you know, that all needs to be trimmed down. There needs to be a plan, as we've said, you know, CGI especially deserves a realistic part of your budget, if it's a dominant part of your project. So, you know, just gonna reiterate connecting early in the process, you know, we might seem like magicians and wizards and I'm not saying we're not, but it...
Paul DeNigris (36:29)
Haha
Laura Skowronski Nattam (36:30)
It all starts with this kind of conversation, right? So, ⁓ you know, even if your story doesn't require heavy CGI worlds or character work, it's a good idea to have a VFX consultant ⁓ on board early to anticipate what your needs are gonna be.
Laurie Powers Going (36:48)
You know, I tell people that if they can't do a match move with the camera, just don't do it. Don't even try. Don't even try to match manually because you won't. You will never do it. there's no way you could use it. But I would say, even if you have a slight camera move that you're doing, ⁓
Paul DeNigris (37:00)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Powers Going (37:09)
you can still just lock off your clean plate, because usually we can track that onto your slight camera move if it's a flat move. Now, if you're moving around something, that's when you have to match your camera move, and you're going to have to have motion control so that you can actually match it. ⁓ Because you're
shifting your perspective too much to track on a flat image. But then I also tell people, you know, if you're really on a budget and you have to have a little bit of camera move, you can also, your clean plate can literally be a still image, you know, because we can add grain and stuff on that. that's all, if that's the only time that you can afford is to grab a still image, just grab that still image so that at least we have something. Don't come in with nothing and expect us to
Paul DeNigris (37:48)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Powers Going (38:00)
remove a subject out of the you know picture but we don't have anything to put behind it and can I just kind of go off of that onto the subject of green screen suits because I cannot tell you how many times they get like people in green screen suits and filmmakers think that it's very just this magical thing that you pull
You're like, bing, and then the green screen suit is gone. And then somehow this removes somebody from the scene and the background immediately just like shows up behind him. It's like, no, you actually have to have that clean plate. You can remove the green screen person, but all that's going to leave is a big black hole in the shape of the person. You actually have to have. So you can't put somebody in a green suit in front of your actor.
Paul DeNigris (38:39)
Yeah.
Laurie Powers Going (38:56)
and then just like pull the green screen suit and suddenly the actor shows up. That doesn't happen, you know. That's not how green screens work in general. It's a 2D medium. When you pull something out, it's like cutting a picture out of... cutting someone out of a photo, you know. Whatever was behind them when you shot the photo doesn't just magically show up. It's just a big hole. And also green screen suits rarely work like you think they're gonna work.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (39:19)
You
Paul DeNigris (39:20)
yeah, they're they're
generally impossible to actually pull ⁓ a good clean key on because they're wrinkled and they're shaded because it's a three dimensional person in that suit. It's not a flat two dimensional screen. Not only that green screen performers cast shadows on things, which is a whole other kettle of fish because then you're having to rebuild more of the frame to erase their, not only them, but their shadow. Sometimes their shadow passing on the other actor.
Laurie Powers Going (39:23)
yeah.
Paul DeNigris (39:48)
⁓ yeah, we've, we've, we've had, had some experiences with, with green screen suits, ⁓ in the past.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (39:54)
Green suits, green
Joey Cade (39:55)
BOOM
Laura Skowronski Nattam (39:55)
screens, green ⁓ fabric or paper taped onto screens that we're replacing. That's another thing we covered as well.
Paul DeNigris (40:02)
⁓
Laurie Powers Going (40:05)
I just
Paul DeNigris (40:05)
Yes.
Laurie Powers Going (40:05)
had
one that I thought of you this week, Laura, because twice this week I've had this discussion about green screens on TVs. And one of them had the green paper. And so I was like, this is actually going to cost more than if you just left the screen blank, because now I have to paint the frame back in, because now the paper is bulging out and covering the frame. And unfortunately, that actually costs more. So they're going to try to get me actually a clean plate of the TV.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (40:13)
Hmm.
The frame.
Paul DeNigris (40:25)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (40:34)
Yeah.
Laurie Powers Going (40:34)
that's without anything on it. So they do have the advantage of that. I know it's your pet peeve, so I'll let you talk about that.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (40:37)
Yeah, there's.
my gosh. Well, it's just
something that it's incredible how many times it comes up. And, you know, we definitely respect people are trying. They're trying. They think, ⁓ okay, I need to replace this computer monitor or this phone screen. You know, I've got this phone here, so I need to put something on the phone. So I got to make it as green and as, you know, can they just like...
Adobe Photoshop magic wand, this piece of paper that I've taped onto there. And as you said, no, it's a physical thing that now we have to reframe it and everything. the other thing is like when it comes to something like a black screen, like you can see my phone, you see reflections. So if you leave it black, ⁓ as long as you always have like an edge that's traceable, like on these rounded phones, it's harder to trace. But anything like a
a straight cornered bezel on, ⁓ whether it be a monitor or phone, that's fine for tracking. So like, if you're gonna put a blue or green illuminated screen on, that's fine. ⁓ That's better than putting, know, taping or ⁓ fixing some kind of physical thing on your screens to replace. But oftentimes it's best just to leave it black because you can capture then
you're not erasing the entirety of the screen, you're able to maintain the reflections that you get and reapply it to the image that you put into that screen.
Laurie Powers Going (42:23)
In particular, if nobody or no object is crossing in front of the TV, you absolutely don't need to green screen or blue screen it. You need to do that. Like if you have a subject that is constantly crossing in front of the TV and people are standing and there's things moving, then I would say, you need to get some, unless you're going to roto all that activity, ⁓ you do need a green screen. You need to pull it. as I was explaining,
Laura Skowronski Nattam (42:28)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Powers Going (42:52)
also this week weekend. ⁓
Green screens and blue screens are meant to pull foreground elements off of the background. So if you don't actually have anything crossing in front of the TV, you don't have anything to pull. And in that case, you can just put something on top of the TV without having to pull anything. And so you don't need a green screen.
Paul DeNigris (43:13)
Right. Yeah, this is the same advice that Laura and I give to all of our clients. We literally just did a show.
specifically said, don't put green tape on your screens. And then the footage came back to us and they put green tape on all the screens. was like they heard the sentence but didn't hear the don't at the beginning of it. So it added a whole bunch of extra paint work and all of that sort of stuff. ⁓ This is all great advice. And normally at this point of the show, I say. ⁓
I ask my guests, what is one piece of advice you would share with producers who aren't yet experienced with VFX if they want to use VFX on a project? I think you've all hit the number one thing, which is plan early, talk to a VFX professional as soon as you possibly can and get them involved in the process. That's pretty much everybody's answer. Okay, so let's take that one off the table. What's your number two bit of advice that you would give to filmmakers?
Laurie Powers Going (44:13)
Buy our book.
Paul DeNigris (44:16)
⁓ Buy Laurie and Shaina's book. Yes, and subscribe to this podcast.
Joey Cade (44:21)
Yeah.
Laurie Powers Going (44:21)
Yes.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (44:23)
Well, okay. So one thing, since we're talking about what we run into frequently, ⁓ if you ⁓ have something CG in your short film or your independent film, ⁓ there's this question of, does it have to be custom? Do we have to build it or should stock assets be used? And that's true actually for live action stuff too, because there's stock.
live action. There's great libraries of stock footage that can be tapped into. the same is true for CGI. There's plenty of characters and props, vehicles, that sort of thing, even environments on a variety of platforms. If we get the correct reference from the director and the writers and everyone, the producers of the film, if they are able to give us ⁓
specific direction and references of what they want things to look like, you know, we can decide, well, does that cockroach really need to be fully modeled, rigged and animated? We've got, there's libraries for that sort of thing. That's not, but this is a creature, this is a ⁓ very specific custom creature with wings and it has this apparition effect and has this weird face, you know, deformation or something like that.
Then, okay, we need to talk about whether there's a budget, whether there's capacity to do a full CGI or whether there's clever warping of a practical ⁓ actor in prosthetic makeup and stuff like that. So that's one thing that we, ⁓ especially for indies, the simplest solution, limiting the CGI is often the best solution. ⁓
in order, if you need a custom build to tell your story effectively, then let's discuss those scope limitations up front and we'll come and find a meeting place however we can.
Shaina Holmes (46:30)
I have three things that I will be quick about. ⁓ I think if you are reading your script and it takes place a lot on texting, like with a phone, on screens, all that kind of stuff, I guarantee your entire visual effects budget will be taken up by doing all these unique graphics.
Paul DeNigris (46:33)
Go for it Shaina. You don't need to be quick.
Shaina Holmes (47:00)
So it would be much better if you hire an on-set graphics person to do live playback and create those graphics for you, and then only fix the three to five that need story changes later on ⁓ once you edit it all together. It would be much easier because ⁓
I don't know if anyone's ever tried to track a phone that someone's holding in their hand that's shimmering in the reflections of light and with fingers on top trying to type. It's very difficult to animate all that together. So please, please hire someone on set to do that. Shoot it live. ⁓ Second is in pre-production.
talk to visual effects about how to set up the camera. Because bigger is not always better. Just because your camera can do 8K higher than that doesn't mean visual effects can work on 8K footage. ⁓ So just think 8K, 8,000, whatever, eight times as much cost and storage.
Joey Cade (48:12)
Thank
Shaina Holmes (48:29)
for you to do that visual effects and how are you gonna transfer that and work really fast on this project? You likely can't and you will probably be working at 2K, maybe 4K with your visual effects team. So talk to them first, what do they need bigger and what are their ideal specs? Know that before you start.
And third thing happens in the bidding process. It's really, we've talked about bidding off of a script. That's an estimated bid. We're just trying to give you advice on how to shoot something so it stays cost effective later and talk through a bunch of different techniques that we could do. But in post-production, don't just send us all your dailies. We need to know.
which take and which part of that take you want us to work on because some places bid per frame, some places bid like this take exactly. This has no camera movement. No one's walking in front of the thing I have to replace and blah, blah. And then you edit a different take in there that's longer. And you're like, why is it not the same cost? Why do you have to start over?
⁓ that kind of stuff. So send the exact footage that you want bid to your visual effects person. Don't have them do work on something else and not expect to restart if you change it.
Paul DeNigris (50:14)
Right. Great advice.
Laurie Powers Going (50:16)
Right, you want to lock your edit before you start your bids. And I'm just going to continue that thought just for a second to say that ⁓ one of the most complicated things that I have is getting ⁓ independent filmmakers to get their shots to me from edit, because very often they're doing their own editing. And when
you're taking a shot from editing to visual effects. One thing I think that is very difficult sometimes for filmmakers or even independent editors to understand is that a single shot in visual effects is just a single cut. know, when you cut into a shot and when you cut out of that shot. So for every single cut, ⁓ we are considering that a different shot in visual effects. And I think filmmakers often think of a shot as
Paul DeNigris (51:04)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Powers Going (51:09)
you know, a take. And so it's just a different concept, you know. And I explained it a couple of weeks ago in the sense that, you know, we may be tracking something onto, say we're tracking something onto a camera movement, but if it switches to another angle, we have to start over. You know, we have to set that whole shot up again. We have to set up our tracker, everything.
Joey Cade (51:10)
Mm-hmm.
Laurie Powers Going (51:35)
So you can think of it that way. Anytime the shot changes, we have to start over. We need each clip as an individual shot. So even though you used your single take like five times within an edit, for us, that's five visual effects shots that we have to set up individually and work on. So that's the first thing. But my second thing is just to say that
Paul DeNigris (51:55)
Right.
Laurie Powers Going (52:03)
I don't think anybody should think to start out with that I can't do it because it's gonna be too expensive because you don't know that until you've talked to someone. And I think you would be surprised what you can do as an independent filmmaker with visual effects if you just have that conversation, you know. And sometimes the things that you think are going to be the most expensive are not or the most complicated or not. You know, I had...
One that I worked on last year that was actually really fun, where they ⁓ had, it was like a Christmas thing and Santa's sleigh deer, know, the deer were supposed to be popping up and they used a deer head, a stuffed deer head that comes or pokes around the corner. And they were like, is there any way to kind of add some anime? So, you know, I made like the eyes blink and they kind of snort, the nose kind of snorts. so, know, so it was like adding some motion to that.
And it was a lot of fun and it wasn't that hard. But on the other hand, like Laura was just talking about, sometimes tracking, people think, it's going to be really easy to track something on your phone, but that it can be so hard and you can spend like a week doing that. Whereas I spent like, you know, four hours doing this deer, making animating this deer to come to life. And people would think that would be the opposite, you know? So if you don't actually work in visual effects, you don't, don't assume and just talk.
you know, talk to people, go talk to your visual effects person and very often if they are working on independent films, they're used to working on independent films, they are also used to your budget and can help you come down to your budget, you know, and help you with those effects that you actually want. So don't count yourself out or decide, especially don't decide you're just going to try them yourself until you've talked to somebody because you could
really get high-end visual effects at your budget if you just talk to somebody.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (54:02)
especially coming at it with references, with your script, with your storyboards. Hopefully you have storyboards. Even the most rudimentary sketch can be so helpful for VFX. That's one thing too that I think is really important is knowing that, ⁓ I'm a filmmaker, but I'm not an artist. I can't really draw. It's like, doesn't matter. If you tell me you need a bird to fly into an invisible wall, and then I choose to animate that,
in the way that I've interpreted the instruction, but it's different angle, different amount of screen space. know, like this is, I'm speaking from an actual experience if that wasn't obvious. ⁓ Cool project, but this was a challenging shot. If you, as a director, say here's your frame and this is the amount of screen space in the composition that I want your visual effects to take up and I want it to drum up
Joey Cade (54:39)
Mm-hmm.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (55:00)
you know, if it's a tornado, I want it to drum up counterclockwise or clockwise and I want it to start here and end here and like just draw arrows, just draw the most rudimentary shapes whatsoever, just to give us the basic understanding of what is in your head. Cause a lot of times, you know, filmmakers, have a vision of what they want. And sometimes it's hard to express that in a way that
makes sense to everyone. And so why not use all the tools at your disposal? You've got a little written instruction, sure, but why not just do even the most bare bones, stick figure sketch, just a shape, just a sized, like this is the position, this is the idea, or this is the timing, this is when in the shot that I want this to appear or disappear or that sort of thing. those kinds of...
context clues even at their most basic form are so helpful for your VFX team.
Joey Cade (55:59)
Absolutely.
Paul DeNigris (55:59)
Yeah,
the more specific and succinct you can make your feedback, your notes, your plans, the more you communicate to your VFX team, the less the shot will cost you ultimately. Yeah.
Joey Cade (56:12)
Absolutely.
piece of advice is related to the thing that, or related to all of them in the sense that I always say that the best budget saver long-term for any independent filmmaker is to find someone you trust who is a VFX partner. know, it's find your Laurie, find your Shaina and find your Laura, find your Paul. Find someone that you can call and talk about your project, even when it's just in your head. Even when you don't have a script yet.
You know, having that trusted person is going to help you plan it right, know, collaborate back and forth right to figure out what your vision actually is, and we'll help you get it done in the budget that you have. And that'll help you your whole career. So find that person to trust and hire them.
Paul DeNigris (56:53)
Yeah, it's great advice. Great advice. ⁓ most of us VFX people, you you you ply us with drinks or food, we'll happily talk VFX with you for as long as you need. ⁓ So yeah, keep that in mind, reach out to us.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (57:01)
You
Paul DeNigris (57:10)
All right, so we're at the approximately one hour mark and I try and keep these episodes to be about one hour long. So what we're going to do is I'm going to call an audible and we're going to turn this into two episodes because these these esteemed ladies have so much great, great information and great knowledge that they want to share with the audience. So we're going to call it a wrap right now and ⁓ and I will bring them back for our next episode. So ⁓ any any parting thoughts before before we go?
⁓ Anything you want to plug real quick? us how we can order ⁓ Shaina and Laurie's book. That way people can read it before the next episode. Go.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (57:47)
You
Laurie Powers Going (57:50)
Our book is on Amazon and most bookstores. It's also on the publisher's website, which is Rutledge. And right now there is a discount code for 25 % off through August the 18th, which is VisEffects2025. That's V-I-S-Effects spelled out 2025.
Paul DeNigris (58:13)
Great. And I'll put the link and the discount code in the show notes for, ⁓ for my guests to, to be able to order the book. highly recommend it. I'm still waiting for my autographed copy, but, ⁓ you know, we can discuss that offline
Joey Cade (58:24)
Thank
Paul DeNigris (58:27)
All right, and before we sign off, ⁓ Laura, you had something you wanted to say about the South By experience.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (58:33)
Definitely, we really enjoyed it. We weren't ⁓ sure what would get into the panels and we're so ⁓ grateful that we got a chance ⁓ to express ⁓ our experience in our industry and help fellow filmmakers, ⁓ especially in the independent film community. So we just wanted to thank South by Southwest for selecting us. We really enjoyed the experience and.
⁓ Everyone, the volunteers, the staff, everyone across the conference and festival, we really wanted to extend our thanks.
Paul DeNigris (59:09)
Great, and if you haven't attended South by Southwest and you're an indie filmmaker or indie film fan, it is a must. I went in 2024. It was incredibly overwhelming. That's why I had to take this year off. But I hope to rejoin Laura at South by. She's a whirlwind to go to South by with, right? The woman just doesn't stop.
Laurie Powers Going (59:31)
Yes.
Joey Cade (59:35)
Have you seen her South by Southwest spreadsheet? It's amazing. It's amazing. Amazing.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (59:36)
We could do a whole episode. Yeah.
Paul DeNigris (59:38)
yeah, the spreadsheet, the schedule. It's yeah,
it was it was intense. I I got there and we met up and Laura was like, OK, I'm going to this and then I'm going to this and then I've got these two things booked. I'm not sure which one I'm going to go to. I'll just I'll decide later. And OK, I'll see you. And it was like shell shock after she took off.
Joey Cade (1:00:01)
some of
the fun of South by because you get the app and you're like, wait, there's eight things I want to go to at the same time. And then it's literally like based on if you can get in where you are in, you know, before getting around. Anyway, it's fun.
Paul DeNigris (1:00:06)
Yeah. Yeah.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (1:00:14)
That's
how I deal with, first of all, that's how I am with spontaneity, not that spontaneous of a person. Like to plan, can be spontaneous, but where I really don't like being spontaneous is that exact thing, the FOMO of like, oh my gosh, there's 20 things that I wanna go to, how do I choose? Like, how do I make my decision that I'll be the happiest with? And then if you choose that, but then you can't get in, you're like, no.
Joey Cade (1:00:22)
them.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (1:00:41)
So like having a plan, knowing, you know, like I was up so late every night trying to figure out, which are the tabs that I want to have open so I can take advantage of the Express badges the next day. And if you have a platinum badge this year, they were doing two day in advance. It's a whole, we could do a whole other episode just on South by just doing the experience of South by. Yeah, because it is.
Laurie Powers Going (1:01:03)
how to, how to
Joey Cade (1:01:04)
Yeah.
Laurie Powers Going (1:01:06)
self-buy.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (1:01:07)
It is overwhelming. ⁓ It is a lot. And it's a lot of good. That's the thing. There's a lot of that eustress versus distress. It is ⁓ so much information and so many people coming to town, but having a plan about even so much as how you're getting in, if you're parking or you're commuting in or walking from a hotel, if you're able to even get in that close. ⁓
or ⁓ planning meals, figuring out, well, I have this 20 minute or 10 minute block of time that I can squeeze in a lunch, otherwise I'm not gonna eat for 12 hours. ⁓ Just that sort of thing. I find that it's best to have all that stuff sort of planned out, but absolutely you can go and be spontaneous and...
sort of roll into whatever experience you're gonna have. So it's really about the type of person you are and how you like to experience these kinds of things. So sorry for overwhelming you, but definitely it's actually how I deal with my overwhelm.
Laurie Powers Going (1:02:16)
you
Paul DeNigris (1:02:18)
It was, it was
my first year there, so it was going to be overwhelming no matter what. ⁓ and I, I frankly couldn't ask for a better, a better tour guide to South by and to Austin at large.
Laura Skowronski Nattam (1:02:22)
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. Thank you.
Paul DeNigris (1:02:31)
Alright, we're gonna stop there.
Paul DeNigris (1:02:34)
that brings this episode of VFX for Indies to a close. Thanks so much to this, this wonderful panel. All my guests, Laura Skowronski, Natan, Joey Cade, Shaina Holmes, and Laurie Powers Going for being here with me today.
And thank you, my audience, for tuning into our discussion. If you enjoyed this episode, please like, follow, subscribe, leave a comment or review. Every little bit helps us get the word out about our show. And don't forget to tune in for part two of my conversation with this panel on the next episode. For Foxtrot X-Ray, I'm Paul DeNigris, thanks so much for being part of the VFX for Indies community.
