The Technical Artist's Path: Pedro Andrade's Journey from Engineering to VFX

Pedro Andrade's journey from mechanical engineer to visual effects supervisor on blockbuster franchises showcases the beautiful intersection of technical expertise and artistic vision. After abandoning engineering to pursue music production in London, Pedro stumbled into VFX through his wife's 3D visualization work, discovering that compositing combined the technical aspects of engineering with the creative layering process similar to music mixing.

What sets Pedro's story apart is not just his work on major productions like Star Trek, Marvel films, and Doctor Who, but how quickly he ascended to leadership roles. His pragmatic approach to problem-solving and management helped him progress from intern to compositing supervisor in just a few years. Surprisingly, it was his work on Doctor Who – a show he admits to disliking – that most developed his creative technical skills, as extreme budget limitations forced innovative solutions.

Throughout our conversation, Pedro emphasizes that successful visual effects hinge on proper planning and management, regardless of budget size. This insight is especially valuable for independent filmmakers who often underestimate VFX requirements or treat them as an afterthought. The numbers don't lie – realistic budgeting and scheduling based on actual production capabilities, not wishful thinking, determine whether VFX can successfully enhance a story.

Now focused fully on CompLair, his platform for helping VFX professionals advance their careers, Pedro shares wisdom about career growth, leadership development, and navigating technological disruptions like AI. His balanced perspective encourages integration rather than rejection of new tools, while maintaining that visual effects should always serve storytelling rather than becoming the focal point.

Whether you're an indie filmmaker considering visual effects for your first project or an experienced VFX artist looking to advance your career, Pedro's insights illuminate a path forward that balances technical mastery with creative vision. Take advantage of CompLair's free Growth Ready Scorecard to evaluate your career trajectory and receive personalized recommendations for professional development.

Transcript

Paul: From the Marvel Universe to Dr. Who from Star Trek to the Fast and Furious, we'll hear from a visual effects pro who's been on the front lines of some of the biggest franchises ever this week on VFX for Indies.

Welcome to VFX for Indies, a podcast about the intersection of visual effects and independent filmmaking. I'm your host, Paul DeNigris, VFX artist, filmmaker, and CEO of boutique visual effects. Shop Foxtrot X-Ray. With me today is Pedro Andrade. Founder of CompLair and a VFX professional whose career goes back to 2013 and Star Trek Into Darkness and hasn't stopped since.

Welcome to the podcast, Pedro.

Pedro: Thank you very much, Paul. Good to see you.

Paul: Good to see you too. On this show, our goal is to bring on guests like Pedro to share their insights into visual effects and film production without going too deep into the weeds of tech talk, with the goal of educating filmmakers who are relatively new to using VFX.

If you like what we're doing here, please like and subscribe to stay updated as we release new episodes. And you can find our back catalog of episodes at VFX for Indies. As I mentioned, Pedro is the founder of CompLair, which has been an invaluable resource for compositors looking to grow their careers and move up into supervisory roles.

I'm excited to chat with Pedro today, since I've been watching his CompLair YouTube content for a while. So let's get started. Pedro, why don't you tell us a bit about your background and your education and what brought you into the world of VFX?

Pedro: Sure. Um, so actually that's a funny story because I was not meant to be in visual effects.

Uh, visual effects happened sort of like by accident. Um, you know, as I normally say, the true artist in my family is my brother. Cause he's like a comics artist that, uh, you know, maybe with the name you can get, uh, to the person I'm talking about, but, um, yeah, so, you know, I was always involved in art, uh, since I remember I was very much involved in music and that's exactly what I wanted to pursue, visual effects was not something that was in the picture, but I will, I was always very, uh, you know, on one hand creative, uh, but on the other hand, also very technical, I, you There's no denying that whatsoever.

So a long story short, what happened was, you know, there was a point in my career, um, that I wanted to do something related with music, but, you know, I'll, you know, family pressures, or even like society pressures or whatever you want to call it, you know, my, I, I chose like a 3d, a more traditional path and ended up, you know, studying, uh, engineering.

So I ended up like working as a mechanical engineer for a while. Um, I'm Portuguese, so this was still in Portugal and, uh, and although, you know, I was working, um, as, as an engineer, you know, um, the creative side was always like conflicting with that side of things. And for me, that was like something that was, you know, really.

killing me and, uh, and I figured out that I need to figure this out for myself. Otherwise, you know, I'm going to be very unhappy with my life. So that came a point in which I think by year three into engineering, uh, I decided to, okay, I'm going to let go of everything and I'm just going to pursue my career in music.

And at that time I didn't know exactly what to do, but I, I had a strong suspicion that probably that we'll have to do something with recording. Um, because I always liked music production and, um, and you know, especially, yeah, especially production, but also mixing. And so that was like the path that I wanted to, to basically to see myself as.

the, you know, the job of my dreams. And so I decided to basically make something about it and start to investigate where should I do that kind of stuff? The world seems so big and so small at the same time, right? Uh, this was many, many years ago. This was, I would, I hate to say it, but I think this was like 15, 17 years ago.

Um, and so at that time I decided to, okay, I'm going to have engineering as my last year on a certain year, I'm going to go to work in a completely different place, which is, uh, Angola, which is a, in, in Africa. And I want to make this as my last year. I'm going to earn as much money as I can possibly earn so I can support myself for what's to come.

Because most likely I'm not going to earn money for a long time, uh, being, or trying to pursue music production. Right. And at that time I didn't know exactly where, uh, I was debating between the States and in the States, that would be LA or London, and then due to the visa processes and stuff like that, we decided to go to London at that time.

I also had started a relationship with my now wife, back then, uh, girlfriend. And, you know, far from the ideal scenario in all types of circumstances. But we both had a dream, which was we want to make something different for our lives. And because London was so much close to Portugal and we didn't have the visas to care about, we decided to go to London.

Uh, with nothing, uh, but our dreams, basically, uh, this sounds like a very cheesy kind of story, but that's exactly how we went. Uh, and so, you know, my wife, her name is Monica. She was, she's a designer and she was involved in the 3D visualization of things at that time, and she wanted to pursue that side of things a bit more.

And so what happened was she ended up, um, going into Escape Studios to study more that, that craft. And I was basically trying to make it as a music producer in London. So basically our, our nights and days were always about like watching, you know, music acts just to try to sign some clients, right. Um, that was tough in some, in some aspects, more for Monica than, than it was for me.

Um, but it was a very fun, fun time nevertheless. So what happened at, at some point was Monica was just asking me, Opinions about like what she was doing. Um, instead of like, you know, certain shots or whatever, I didn't know what the shot was back then, but it was just a picture for me. Right. And I didn't know like the software or anything about that kind of stuff, but I was asking, I would ask her like, how can I change these aspects or that aspect, just tell me where to push the buttons.

And then she would tell me and I would make my version of what it seemed to me to be the right thing or the thing that would sit better. You know, uh, from my eyes. Right. And then I realized that that process actually was very close to, on one hand, engineering in terms of like, how the software looked like.

We were talking about Nuke at that time because she was finalizing some shots, although she was not into compositing. She was a 3D modeler, but she was like finalizing the shots in Nuke. And I realized that, wait a second, this has a lot to do with engineering, a lot with circuitry and stuff like that. And at the same time, it had the same mental, Um, the same mental, how can I say, discipline when it comes to music mixing?

Because if you think about it, music mixing is basically process like hundreds of tracks individually for a stereo output, right? So compositing is in some way very similar to that, if you think about it, which is you process different elements one by one to a single image, right? So that kind of mentality was very much aligned with the things that I already, you know, had in me, I guess.

So I was like, okay, look, music is not really working for me cause it's a super competitive market and there's not a lot of work out there. Um, financial stability was not a thing. So, you know, I'm just, I have nothing to do. So I'm just gonna, you know, study by myself, uh, for, I think it was three months, but I studied like really hard, like 15, 16 hours a day, nonstop.

Uh, but I didn't have any expectations. I was just like, okay, let's see where this takes me. Um, I know that I, I have, I'm a very focused guy, so I can put like the focus, like, like, you know, seriously, no, no, no breaks, no nothing. Uh, so I gave myself like three months to see what, uh, what would happen. And then I had like, uh, some sort of like surreal.

Which at that time, I didn't know that that was a thing, but I was told that you need to produce something to show your work. So that's exactly what I did. And then because Monica at that time was already, uh, working, uh, in, uh, in a visual effects house in London, you know, she had some contacts of people, uh, you know, production and stuff like that.

And there was like a party in which we were, uh, at, uh, like a housewarming party of a producer. That, uh, was working at that time at Jellyfish, uh, Jellyfish pictures. And she told me that she was, they were taking interns and they were taking interns in compositing. And I was like, all right, I, I just produced this.

So let's see, you know, well, you tell me whether or not this is something that you would like to, to know more about. And she said, ah, this is perfect. And then, you know, without me expecting once again, anything, I believe it was like on the following week, I was called for an interview and I got my unpaid internship at that time.

So that's basically how it happened. Wow. So it was not programmed whatsoever.

Paul: No, I, and I can totally relate. We listening to you talk, there's so many, we have so many parallels. You, you wouldn't even believe. Yeah. Well, um, So I, you know, I always say that I'm, I'm a child of, you know, Spielberg and Lucas, like I saw Star Wars and then Close Encounters and that's what made me want to be a filmmaker.

Uh, and so my whole childhood, I was drawing spaceships and writing stories about the spaceships and the people in the spaceships and the robots and the spaceships and all of this stuff. And so, um, you know, my academic career, my, all my advisors and my parents pushed me into aerospace engineering. So my first two semesters.

It of undergrad, I was a mechanical engineering major and I, and I added, uh, one film class every semester and it was, it was that basic filmmaking class and I was sitting editing, I was editing on super on super eight film, you know, with scissors and tape and a little splicer and a little, little viewer that I just had that moment of Zen where it was like, this is what I'm supposed to be doing.

Uh, kind of like you, where it was like, you know, the, the arts drew you away from engineering. And I have. Met so many people in the VFX industry. Who started either engineering or computer science, right?

Pedro: Computer science. Yes. Engineering. I know some, but not that much.

Paul: I, so, um, I'm a little older than you, no secret.

Um, so a lot of the folks that I met early in my career were like, were like both of us who had come over from engineering into, uh, into computer animation or into compositing, because it is, it is that right brain, left creative and technical, uh, thing that it. Um, that engineering also sort of tickles, right?

Engineering is more, leans more heavily technical, but there is a creative aspect to engineering.

Pedro: Um, for sure. I think the creative aspect is actually very much aligned with what compositing work is all about. Specifically, but VFX in general, um, or technical arts in general, because you need the creative technical expertise to try to find the best solution.

And although we're talking about something technical, there's something very creative also about like, what is the best solution on the technical side of things, if that makes sense. You know, I'm right. Yeah, absolutely.

Paul: And, um, and, and that's one of the things that I love about the film industry and about film in general is.

You've got the full spectrum, right? You've got people who are writer directors who are a hundred percent creative. They don't really know technical stuff. You start talking to them about frame rates and, and look up tables and, uh, and bit depth and, you know, what, you know, any sort of technical thing and their eyes glaze over because they are super creative.

They're super. Like just focused on storytelling and all of that. And then you've got at the way opposite end of the spectrum. You've got people who are, um, you know, grips and gaffers who, yes, they're creative, but they lean much more heavily into the technical side because it's all about the nuts and bolts of it.

And VFX lives in that, in that in between. Um, you know, when I was teaching, I always used to tell my students like VFX people, we are the Renaissance people of the film industry, because we have to know, Everything we have to know storytelling. We have to know lighting. We have to know cameras. We have to know lenses.

We have to know why the camera's here, not just how to place the camera here, but why is it here? What are we trying to tell it was say with this lighting, what are we trying to say with, you know, the details in the background of a map painting? All of that stuff is telling the story, but we also have to have all of this technical skill to be able to be on the box and actually execute the ideas.

So that's, that's really fascinating. Um, and I, and I definitely see. A lot of overlap with music to music production. Um, because yeah, it is, it is creative and technical, you know, you, you, um, you know, some of the, the folks that I admire the most in the music industry, they are incredible technicians. Um, you know, like I'm a massive fan of Steely Dan, Donald Fagan and Walter Becker, right?

Two, two incredibly creative guys who also like just absolutely killed themselves in the mixing suite to make every track, every note, every single thing perfect. Um, and I could definitely, I could definitely see in a, in an alternate universe, there is a, a successful music producer. And Pedro Andrade, who is, uh, who is very,

Pedro: I did some stuff.

Yeah,

I did some stuff. I can send you some, some of this stuff after, but yeah, I mean, for me, I think what I was taking, so actually let, let me take a step back. So between music production and music mixing, both of them are very technical, but one of them is more technical than other, and they're both creative as well.

So I liked very much the music. Um, mixing because he had, again, what I think compositing gave me, which is the, the right balance between the two, right? Um, when it comes to music production, there's different styles of different music producers, of course, in the same way that there's different kinds of VFX supervisors, some of them are more technical, some of them are more artistic and there's no right or wrong with this.

It's just like different approach, right? But I wanted to, you know, um, to really get my hands dirty and to try to do something, to create something with the technical aspect of, of, of things. For example, when I hear a snare, there's multiple ways of how you can make a snare sound, right? So you can either commit that like when you are tracking or you can change that or, and you can change that slightly on the mixing stage.

Right. So I'm just giving like this as a, like a quick analogy, but, um, but yeah, that's what I found also the analogy between that side of that world and visual effects. Because again, as you said, there's like the right combination, at least for me and perhaps for you as well. Yeah. Right. Combination between the technical aspect and the creative aspect.

Yep.

Paul: Absolutely. Absolutely. The there's, as when I'm on the box, I'm a compositor like you Nuke, uh, Nuke guy, and my favorite times when I'm, when I'm working as a Nuke compositor are when I've got a creative problem that I need to create a technical solution for, um, that's super fun because then it's, then it's, it's activating both sides of the brain.

And it's, uh, I'm in my, I'm in my happy place, much like I was when I was sitting surrounded by, you know, tape and razor blades and super eight film and a little viewer in college. It was that it was that I'm, I'm having to master all this technical detail stuff to create, to, to bring across my, my vision into, into reality.

So that first, uh, intern gig, then how did that, how did that launch your career? Like, where did you go from there?

Pedro: I mean, from there, everything happened like super quickly for me. Um, and only much later I start to collect the pieces to try to understand how or high or how, or why this happened so quickly for me, because.

What happened was after Jellyfish, I think I stayed there for like, maybe in total, maybe six months or something like that across different contracts and projects. Uh, and then I landed, landed at, uh, Pixomondo, um, when they were finishing up Star Trek. And so that was like, I guess at that time, like the big major production.

that I was involved in. Um, there was a lot of details about like what happened to that show at that time in that company that I'm not going to get into right now, cause it's a little bit of out of the scope of what we're trying to, to, to discuss here. But in any case, uh, after that, then I went to different, um, places.

And at that time, one thing that I was doing. Um, was freelancing, which as I normally say, it's not the best place to start a career being freelancer because normally people hire freelancers to solve problems that they want to be solved. They want it to be solved quickly. Right. And you as a freelancer, when you starting out, there's not, there's a lot of stuff that you don't know.

Right. So it's, it's not the best, the best place to start. But, um, one thing that I, I think I got a lot from starting that way was the fact that I. I worked in many different places. I got to know like a lot of people very early on being exposed to different pipelines, different ways of doing things, trying to.

You know, forced myself to fit into this picture, um, after being exposed to so many different, you know, studios and, and, and projects and, and people. Pipelines as well. And then I start crafting my own way of doing things, I guess, also take into account my past backgrounds. So I guess I naturally double down on my differences as opposed to try.

Basically be someone like, like, like someone that I knew or something like that. Uh, of course we all, all of us, we got, we got influenced by the people that are surrounding us, obviously. Um, and that's a good thing, not a bad thing, but at the same time, you know, I always sort of like felt that as I'm sort of like an outsider because my background was so different.

So I think, I think in hindsight, what I did was I doubled down on my differences as I said before, and craft my way. doubling down on those differences and making things happen in a different way in comparison with what other people were doing, for example. And I think that that's basically what got me into, at some point, at Milk Visual Effects, after going through many different companies.

I remember Base Black was one of them, uh, MPC at that time as well, in which I worked on Guardians of the Galaxy, the first one, um, and then I ended up at Milk, and when I got at Milk, Milk was, at that time, A new studio that was born out of The Mill. And that was a lot of stuff. Um, that, you know, being a new studio, the company was not, didn't have like things developed in the way that they have it, for example, today.

Right. So because of my technical background and, and my proactive, I think, attitude at that time, naturally speaking, I was not like looking into impress. A, B, or C. I was just trying to solve problems that I thought that they needed to be solved, but then I was, you know, invited very early on to, you know, become a comp supervisor.

And that's basically how everything started for me when it comes to supervision roles.

Paul: Yeah. That, and that's where I was going to go next is the, you made that jump really quickly. I mean, at least, at least on paper, right. Looking at your IMDB, there's only a few years between your first role, your first credited role as a compositor to.

All of a sudden you're a comp supervisor like that super fast. Um, so that, that obviously speaks volumes to one right place, right time, but also right person with right skills, uh, being you, uh, inserted into the workflow at, at the, at Milk. Um, so that's, that's, uh, that's amazing. Um, what are, so. Just take like a macro view, you know, what are you, what are some of your biggest career highlights like the shows or the shots that you love working on people that you, you'd love working with or learn the most from just, you know, go, go anywhere with this answer.

Pedro: Yeah, I mean, I, I worked in the, in many different projects and the biggest projects in the world. You've highlighted some of them in the, in the, in the intro. Um, and people can look at my IMDB. To be honest with you, I don't have like a special recollection from Project A, B, or C because all of them were different.

What I save better memories is like the teams or the people that, um, that I worked with. And, um, luckily enough, I think, you know, I, I saved the best memories of people in the leadership that I worked with and all of them were women. So maybe that tells you something You know, maybe we need more women in our industry, um, uh, because it's not as diversified as, as I think it should be.

And the best memories that I have is, is people in leadership, uh, roles that I learned a ton from, um, you know, starting from the one that appointed, appointed me, uh, to become a co supervisor for the first time, which is Sara Bennett, so Oscar winner. Um, and so I learned a ton with, with her in many different ways.

Not so much on the technical nitty gritty kind of stuff, but just like, you know, Sometimes it's like unspoken things, um, that you learn from just the way that you perceive a certain role or you talk with someone, you know what I mean? Um, I think at that time, I, one of the things that I've developed quite a lot was that maybe I had that already in me in some aspects, but the soft skills in terms of like the way that you push someone to do something in the ways that they are the first ones to be surprised about like, Oh, I'm Uh, can I do this?

Yeah, apparently I can, you know what I mean? So that kind of stuff, you know, um, because, you know, being, being in a leadership role, that's exactly what you need. You, you know, part of the role is nurture the team that you have, making them achieve even more in comparison to what they have in their minds about like what they are capable of and then deliver the show.

Um, with the right specs, um, even surprising the client if we can, of course, at the right time, that's basically the job, isn't it? Um, but you need to have the team and having a team is not just, okay, I have a team and then what, right? So most people, this is, that's basically what they are, but, um, answering your question, I don't have like a specific, um, you know, story to tell about Project A, B, or C.

I can tell you maybe that, um, one of the shows that pushed me Um, for the development of my creativity when it comes to the technical side of things. The thing that we were talking about just now was perhaps Dr. Who, which is a show that I don't like at all. I'm not a fan. I didn't grow up with it. I don't like the show.

So I, you know, I'm, I'm telling you this straight up, straight up, right? Uh, but at the same time, because the ideas were so crazy and the budget was so minimal, it, it really pushed your creativity beyond anything that, if it wasn't for that fact, possibly you won't be able to, to tap into that kind of stuff.

You know what I mean? So I think it awoken something in me at that time, uh, that I think I had already and I had developed something, but I think he put that kind of mentality, that mindset on steroids. And so from that point onwards, I think it informed me or it pushed me into a different way of doing things.

Um, again, was not only directly related with the show, but without a, without a doubt that that show pushed my Creativity, like in this way, when it comes to the technical approaches, uh, or try to find the technicalities to make something possible when apparently it's impossible.

Paul: Yeah. I mean, there's nothing, there's nothing like a limited budget to, to push you to be more creative.

Uh, and that's why. That's why I love working in independent films. Um, you know, as much as I love Guardians of the Galaxy, you can see I've got the, right there, you know, I've got some action figures somewhere. Um, yeah, as much as I love all of that sort of stuff. Um, and I also, I mean, I like Dr. Who, so I won't hold that against you though.

Um, uh, I'm a, I'm a Whovian, a lot of people do that. Oh, obviously, obviously it's been around forever. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Tom, Tom Baker was my. was my doctor and then, uh, um, and then I introduced my, my, uh, one of my sons to a Dr. Who and Matt Smith became his doctor. Um, so, uh, so yeah, so we, you know, love, love that show and love how, how wacky and off off center it can be and how, yeah, historically since the very beginning, it has had Not enough budget to execute the ideas that they wanted to do.

And yet they still managed to, to tell a pretty interesting stories and, and do some really interesting stuff. And then that, you know, that's a really good parallel to the average independent filmmaker who wants to use VFX in their, in their movies, right? They, they, they never, they don't have Marvel's budget, right?

So they're lucky if they have Dr. Who's budget. Um, and, and how do we, how do we help them, you know, get their ideas across, With the tool, with the tools that we have on the VFX side of the thing, how do we get that across? So you're now, you're now a comp supervisor and you're, um, you're continuing to, to work up, you know, you become comp supervisor at Cinesite, head of compositing at MPC.

You know, these are, these are. Like some of the biggest and best known companies in the industry, right? So again, keeping that, that, uh, indie film mission that I've got here in mind. Um, let's think, talk about some of the stuff you've seen in your leadership roles at these studios. What are some things you've encountered that can be applied to that low budget, low to medium budget indie film space, whether it's stuff you picked up on Dr.

Who or other. Other things, because every show, even a, even a Marvel show, I, you know, I guarantee you run out of time and run out of money at some point. And you've got to pull, pull some sort of solution out of your head.

Pedro: Oh, for sure. Especially when it comes to big, big budget productions like that, which some people, um, that perhaps are not as experienced working on those type of productions, they may think that it's the other way around, but in fact, no.

Um, more money sometimes that doesn't equate necessarily speaking to, you know, um, better planning. And so answering your question. I would say that planning and management is, I think, what's it's what's at the center of a successful project or the other way around. Most of the times it's the other way around because this lacks.

So I would say that, um, the parallel in terms of like, what are the best things that either a very big production, um, movie can have in the same way that a low budget can have to make the success of that picture come through. Take into account the process of making it not so much the process, the, the, the picture itself.

I think it has to do with management, which is like one of the biggest things that I think, or the biggest thing that lacks in, in our industry overall, whether it's big production or small productions. Um, because if you cannot, um, you know, look into the numbers in the right way. Then there will come a point in which you're just running against time all the time, you know, in the beginning might not feel like that, but there will come a point in which you will feel like that, independent of either the budget is really big or really small, because eventually you will shrink.

Right. So the problem is the same.

Paul: Yeah. Right.

So what's a, what's a VFX challenge, like a specific VFX challenge that you've encountered? That's pretty consistent regardless of the budget level. And how can filmmakers, producers, management, how can they be better prepared for that?

Pedro: I think more than the getting into the technicalities of, of, of the aspect of the craft.

I think it has, I'm going to repeat myself, but it's really looking to the numbers, making sure that. The team that you have can really deliver that the scope of the work that was agreed on went by. So planning, not only, you know, not only making sure that it's possible, but also everything that, you know, goes in between, like, like the planning until you, from the moment you receive things to do until the moment you deliver everything.

Right. So, you know, things like, When can I like, basically, let me take a step back. It's basically the intention. I think that the, the, the goal that normally lacks is making sure that the numbers tells you whether or not something is possible more than just your experience. Most people rely on their experience because they may say, for example, if you're not working a new client, for example, Paul.

The client may say to you, look, here's the budget, here's the, the, the, the total scope of the work, and here's when we want, we need to have it by, right? And then you will say to them without, if you don't base your answering in numbers, you say, look, I don't think this will be possible because of this, this, and this.

There was a time in which we had the similar situation and things were not possible. And then what the client will say, if it's only words, he's going to say exactly the opposite. What do you mean? I had a very similar situation last time with another vendor and they were able to make it work. So I don't know what you're talking about.

So until you get out of that frame between like you saying something and they say something opposite and start really dealing with real numbers, that cannot be. You know, uh, you know, as I normally say, a pesky thing about numbers is that they don't like, right. So you really need to, to, to get into specific things about like really making sure that the team that you have in number is really the team number that you really going to need to make it work, not only from start to finish, but like how do you crew up basically in the middle, in the middle of that development and also knowing with the team that you already have, you know, When buy, you really can deliver something with the team that you have.

And if you do your math, which you're talking about simple math anyway, right? But you can really inform the clients. Oh, look, this is the problem. I really want to make this work, but take into account, like, for example, the average days per shot that we've both agreed on and the team that I have available for the budget, right?

This is what the numbers say to me. If you have other numbers, I mean, I'm happy to discuss, right? But you know, this is, these are my numbers. If you have other numbers, please show me because I would love to make it work. But normally if something is, if something is presented in this way, Not only the client will be rest assured that you're looking into the things in the right way, but you're also working as a team.

You and them right for this to really see the light of day in the best way possible without opinions or last time. This happened. So it was possible or just last time. This happened. It was not possible, right? We need to get out of that, you know, frame of, of, of mind. I would say,

Paul: yeah, I, I totally agree. You know, it's, it's not guesswork, right?

Like, no, things take how long they take. And, Labor costs, how much it costs and it's, yeah, the number, as you say, the numbers don't lie in my experience, what happens a lot, particularly in the indie film space is, uh, either filmmakers aren't budgeting for their VFX or they're not budgeting realistically for their VFX.

Um, you know, I, I just had a film where we, we were asked, you know, to bid on. Hundreds of shots. And it, it, the number turned out to be way larger than the, than the producer was expecting. And it was like, but you, you knew it was hundreds of shots when you turned the cut over to us, like you should have expected a number in this neighborhood.

Um, and then it's like, oh, well, I have to go back to my other producer to discuss it. Well, if you guys are just VFX budget, your system's broken. Yeah. Yeah, it makes it really, really hard. And then, and then, um, you know, then you're asking your VFX vendor to either work for less money than it will take. In which case that is an untenable solution.

I mean, how many, how many VFX companies have we seen in the, in the modern era close up because budgets are too tight, you know, for what they're being asked to do.

Pedro: Some of them really recently, by the way.

Paul: Yes. Yes. Uh, and we'll get into that. We'll, we'll talk a little bit about the current state of the industry, but yeah, like it it's, it's still, it's a business, right.

And it's, um, for whatever reason, VFX kind of gets the, the, gets short shrift on, on budgets. Um, unless, you know, obviously bigger, bigger productions, they're, they're going into it with a, a certain mindset. They, they have a certain number that they know, you know, they have to set aside for VFX, but a lot of times, um, Clients are coming to us and VFX is an afterthought.

VFX is something that they've, Oh, we discovered we have to paint this out. And Oh, you know, we need to fix this wardrobe issue or we need to fix this production design issue. And, uh, can we do all that? Sure. We can do it. Can you afford to pay for, you know, 200 shots of fixing the color of somebody's, you know, somebody's outfit or something.

Um, so yeah, I mean, that's a good segue where, you know, what, what are the, it's a weird time in VFX right now. What are you seeing On your side of the pond, uh, as far as like, what are, what are the biggest challenges right now? And, and, uh, you know, please, please tell me there's a light at the end of the tunnel.

We're going to, we're going to come out of this dark period and get back to work.

Pedro: Uh, I mean, we, one thing that we can all agree on is without even getting into like really market trends and lines and stuff like that, we can agree that there's seems to be like a bounce back of, of the industry right now.

Right. Um, maybe in some parts of the globe, not as much, but certainly we are seeing this globally speaking in general. Right. Um, it, it, it took like a long time for, for, for this bounce to happen. Which tells you right there about the fragility of the filmmaking industry overall. Not only visual effects, visual effects is just a part of the filmmaking industry, right?

But filmmaking, filmmaking in general, right? Um, actually Uh, I don't know if you saw this, but maybe your audience, um, maybe some of them know, some of them they don't know, maybe they will find this insightful, but there's a show on Netflix called The Movies That Made Us that, uh, I think illustrates really well, like how films are made and, you know, everything goes wrong, uh, for many different reasons.

And all these films that, all these movies that we all love and grew up with, I mean, it's, it's a, some, some of them are, it's a miracle that they happen because, um, the odds were not, uh, to their favor whatsoever. So, uh, you know, you know, so again, this illustrates like the, the, the fragility of all filmmaking is, which is very messy, uh, overall.

Uh, which it's a little bit of part of, of the nature of filmmaking in general. But, um, answering your question more directly, yes, the industry is bouncing back. Uh, there's definitely, you know, we all can see that. Uh, it's taking longer than people anticipated. But if you look into specific articles when it comes to the visual effects market overall and filmmaking in general, but specifically about visual effects, growth is projected, uh, for the next few years.

So it's definitely something that is not going to go away whatsoever. I think it's going to, um, develop in a different way, perhaps from what we've seen until now, also taking into account the technology advancements and all that kind of stuff, uh, which also happened, you know, in the past, uh, visual effects as, as a, as a, as a thing is also a fruit of, you know, technology as well.

You know what I mean? Um, in the way that we see it these days, right. Very different when it was sixties and fifties. And even before that, it was more about like imagination, but all of those things, they, they took some technology anyway, right? So now we are seeing like a big lift in terms of like the technology advancement.

But in any case, I think it's going to be more a tool, which I'm not denying that perhaps it's going to cut some jobs, but. Uh, I don't think that it's necessarily speaking a bad thing, which is a very controversial thing to say. So let me explain a little bit further. What I say by the, what I, what I want to say by this is that if there's a process or a technology that can substitute a human, a human being from doing repetitive tasks or tasks that they're just like mechanical, Then what this means is that that human is going to be way more useful on doing something that are more humane, you know what I mean?

Um, for example, when it comes to creativity and stuff like that, right? So I don't think that being, um, in the longterm, I don't think that is a bad thing. In the short term, maybe you're going to see some disruption as we already seeing, but it's part of a change, I guess. So I think the, the goal and the trick is to be aware of all these things.

But Also have like a strategy behind all these changes and how you see yourself in terms of like what your goal is.

Paul: Yeah. My, my fear is that the folks that are funding a lot of this, uh, machine learning and, uh, generative AI technology, they're, they're after, you know, a black box solution that they can type a prompt into and get a movie.

Uh, and they're not, they're not focused on really solving the problem. We don't consumers, I don't think want to watch AI generated content. It's a gimmick. It doesn't really have a heart or soul or, or a sense of, um, uh, you know, spontaneity or, uh, it doesn't speak to the human condition in the way that the best art does.

We want tools to help us clean up green screens. We want tools to help us rotoscope. We want, we want tools to help us estimate depth, uh, to relight Shots. We don't want tools that are going to put us out of the creative work. Right. Uh, and that's, that's what I, I, I wish, I wish the folks that were funding this stuff got.

Uh, I think they would get a lot less, a lot less pushback from us as an industry and from the, you know, society in general, artists in general, if they were like, yeah, not, not pursuing these, these, uh, you know, tools and solutions that can create something from whole cloth, but instead, you know, something that's more.

Yeah,

Pedro: I agree with you, but at the same time, I think we are in the States like any, like big disruption, there's a moment in which there's a lot of experimentation, like, okay, let's see how far we can take this. And then, you know, it's like a curve, like you take it too far, doesn't work. You, you take it like really down again.

I mean, maybe we're not utilizing technology as we should. So let's go back a notch, you know what I mean? And maybe they'll come up pointing everything like all these. thing like this that I'm talking about, it's going to stabilize and it will be part of our tool set, I guess. Um, and, and some of these things will generating images for, for us that in the past, maybe artists were, were doing, you know what I mean?

But I don't think that is necessarily speaking a bad thing. Again, it all depends on the level of what we're talking about, but I think it's really possible. Not right now, but in the future that some of the things that we're going to watch, we don't know whether they were produced by a machine or with some human input.

I think that's going to happen, not to the full extent of what a movie will be about, uh, exactly because of the reasons that, uh, that you're saying. There will be some things that you, you, you don't even, I don't think you even gonna want to question whether or not it's something done by human, a human or not.

It's something that it's there and it helps to tell the story. So for you as a human and your human brain, I think that will be enough for you to just You know, take it as, as he comes. You know what I mean?

Paul: Yeah. I, my, my, my trepidation about that is, um, you know, when you've got AI involved in creating, you're taking away, uh, the capacity for humans to make mistakes and to find errors.

Yeah, happy, you know, happy accident, right? So, yeah, I don't, I don't want that. I don't want AI to take away those happy accidents of actors that, you know, click or, um, you know, some, some, some thing that some compositor accidentally put into their shot that, that improves it. Uh, or some discovery that, uh, uh, you know, some comp supervisor, right.

You know, creating a new, uh, you know, a new node, uh, you know, for the, for his team to use. It's going to discover like, those are, that's what makes, that's, that's what makes all of this nonsense that we deal with on this planet worth it. Um,

Pedro: yeah, I agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you. At the same time, if I can stir the mix it a little bit, a little bit, please.

You know, perhaps you're not considering that those tools, talking about like from a standpoint of a story only, right? Those tools perhaps can give you ideas on how to pursue different angles that maybe you didn't consider before. Absolutely. Not doing everything for you, but maybe giving you a hint of why not pursuing this angle here and then it will be up to you.

I think, I think where we both agree with this, um, And I don't think we are disagreeing by the way. No, not at all. Not at all. The common point I think regarding this specific point is the control that humans have to have regarding where they want to take things, yes. Agreed. Here's the single, here's this solution.

Do you want to take it? Do you want to pursue this? Yes or no, up to you, right? But it should be something that of course, humans should always have a say on because otherwise, you know, there's no control whatsoever. And I think, again, when it comes to AI tools, um, or AI in general. One thing that we all know that is lacking is exactly rules, uh, for it, uh, overall, right in, in whatever field we're talking about, whether it's like medical, uh, uh, side of things or creative side of things, as we're talking about here, there's no regulation.

And I think for the coming years, I think it's inevitable that we see some regulation around that kind of stuff.

Paul: Yeah, we definitely need some guardrails to protect, uh, artists from having their data. Scraped into a gen AI model and then regurgitated out as something quote unquote new. I think, I think gen AI is fantastic.

It's a fantastic conceptualization tool. Um, you know, for, I'm not a traditional artist, right? I, I, my storyboards are stick figures. Uh, if I need to. Uh, convey an idea to my team, I'm going to look for similar images, right? I'm going to go grab a frame from a, from a movie and draw over it and be like, this is what I want.

Gen AI allows me to, you know, I'm a pretty decent writer. I can, I can write out what I want to see and, and iterate and get pretty close, uh, on a conceptual level. And then I can go to my team here. Here's. Here's what's in my head. Let's use unreal or cinema 40 or Maya or whatever to make this. Um, but all of that gets thrown away, right?

It gets, it's, it's used for planning purposes and it's not, it's not ever in the final product. I think that's a great use of it. And I know concept artists and storyboard artists all over the world are now screaming in terror because that's exactly what they don't want us to use it for. The thing is I, I run such a lean operation.

I'm not in a position to hire a concept artist, right? My use of gen AI.

Pedro: But there will be always, the discussion will always be around that because you have that way of thinking of your reasons and then other people will get offended by that because wait a second, but that's my job, right? Uh, but at the same time, probably they're going to use AI because it's just a tool that is out there and there's no denying in that maybe they're going to use that in some way to help them out, but that will offend some other people.

So there's like all of these people get offended because of this. So my approach when it comes to things like this, and it has been always my approach in, in life in general, I would say I'm very pragmatic about like all these things and disruptions, you know what I mean? There's no point, um, I mean, I'm all for, like, people, uh, defending their rights, of course.

I mean, it's not even a question, right? But at the same time, I'm very pragmatic in terms of like, okay, if this is what we're dealing with, this is what I have to do. You know what I mean? There's no point on saying this could be different or could have been scenarios because that's not the reality. The reality is one, and that's the one that we should take it again.

I'm not saying that my way of doing things is the correct way. It's just my way. You know what I mean?

Paul: Yeah, absolutely. And, and we're going to continue having these discussions. I feel like the, you know, the rest of the rest of the 2020s is going to be about this. Yeah, I think,

Paul: Tech, on a tech standpoint, from a tech standpoint, I think it's, it's going...

Pedro: to illustrate my point, and maybe this will be a little bit controversial.

What I'm saying is, for example, when MidJourney came out, um, virtually there was not a single person that didn't produce an image with MidJourney and you know, that that was not putting that image like out there on LinkedIn or whatever other media, right? Everybody was on it. Every single body was on, every single person was on it, right?

A great portion of these people, they were against it all of the sudden, because of all these things. So. You know, it, it does, it doesn't work like that, right? It's either like you either embrace it and then it's the best thing in the world. But next day it's like the worst thing in the world. I mean, I get the reasons, but at the same time, you don't solve anything by going left, right, or hard left or hard right.

You know what I mean? It's, I think as I normally say, it's like the, the middle is where you want to be in terms of like, it's the, the word, the keyword here is integration. You integrate these technologies into things that you're already doing. As painful as it is for some people involved, we are also part of the, everyone, you know, the human race is involved in this, let's not forget.

Right. Uh, we're talking about like on the creative side, but human race is involved in all of these things as well. Right. Uh, some of them, you know, there's a clear advantage of using, uh, you know, um, machine learning and AI in general, for example, on the medical side of things. I think everybody can benefit with that kind of stuff, but the same technology will be disruptive in other areas, hours included, right?

But I think the best way. To go forward is to be pragmatic about like, this is happening. So we might as well just integrate this into our lives in the best way possible. And not, um, going so hard right or hard left with these things, because, you know, we, we've had like other disruptions in the past, in the humankind.

Um, you know, overall story, right. And people that took hard left and hard, right, probably, you know, sorry, told us that they were not winning, you know, they didn't need basically, right.

Paul: Yeah. The thing we need to remember is AI is our creation, like we're the, we're the parent, we're the parent. And if we're worried about how the kid is going to turn out, then we should, we should really think about, you know, what we're putting into it, uh, as far as raising the child.

So, uh, so yeah, and, and, uh, no, this is a good discussion. And, um, and, uh, and I think you're right about a lot of this stuff. Uh, I, I think, um, there's going to be, there's always going to be people who, who, uh, say no, no AI, and there's going to be people who embrace it for what it is. And, you know, from my, from my standpoint, like I wrote a policy on my website, um, that was my, I call it my AI and machine learning policy.

And this it's, and it clearly states, this is how we will use it. This is how we will not use it. And, and that's it. And I think that that's, everybody just needs to do that. And then if a client isn't comfortable with our use of AI, then they know, right? Okay. This is not the company that I want to work with.

And that's it. Fair enough. I've tried to, I've tried to address what I think I always try to address because I'm an indie indie filmmaker at heart. I always try to address what does that indie filmmaker out there who wants to hire me? What do they want? Right. They want to, the reason they're independent filmmakers is because they They want to make something that's handmade, that's bespoke, that is unique.

They don't want cookie cutter, you know, gen AI VFX. If they did, they would do it themselves with mid journey and, you know, the photo Photoshop AI and, you know, et cetera. Right. They would, they, they wouldn't even be talking to me, but the ones who are talking to me, they want that handmade. You know, uh, that, that human input, right?

They don't want gen AI to be involved. So I'm planning my flag. Like this is, this is, this is my policy. Other companies, their policies may be different. Am I right? Am I wrong? I don't know. I'm right for me, for me, right? For the client that I want to pursue. Um, so let's steer the conversation back to that, that imaginary client.

So, you know, you, you're, you're, you're in a pub and, uh, uh, you know, an independent filmmaker says, Hey, I know you're in the. The VFX industry. Um, and, uh, you know, I'm, I'm,

I'm writing a, an indie film and I know I'm going to need VFX. I've, I'm terrified. I'm scared. I've never done any visual effects before. It seems like a big, scary, involved process.

Am I crazy? Should I just drop this idea or what do I do? How do I start?

Pedro: Look, I don't know about your budget, but this is something that you need to consider for sure. Um, so visual effects tend to be expensive. It all depends on the level of shots that has visual effects, because sometimes you can do things in camera that don't rely on the visual effects work, and it still tells the story, you know?

So it all depends on how much you want to push visual effects and what are the reasons. of why you want to do visual effects. So, I mean, we could, we could do this all day, right? We could have like a couple of hours of this role playing here, but what I'm trying to say, I guess, Paul is, um, which was something that I was about to say before and then I forgot, which is visual effects should be used to enhance a story that either cannot be told otherwise or cannot be shown, uh, otherwise, because there's that visual aspect of, of the story to be conveyed.

Right. But it shouldn't be the focus of the film, you know, the focus of the film should be the story. And this is most of the times, I would say 90 percent of films these days, these days, they don't have a story that is appealing that, that. You know, once, you know, keep people watching, you know what I mean?

That maybe they, they the, they, they're watching because they heard that this actor or this extras is in there, or that this crazy visual effects about this planet exploiting or whatever and they wanna see it, or it's another Star Wars spinoff or whatever. All of those reasons, I mean, are fine with me.

But, um, no doubt that I think the center should be about. The story, like reading a book, nobody reads a book if the story is not good, right? Or at least if, if, if it's a romance or if it's something different, uh, that you just want to learn like technical stuff with it, fine. But if it's something that is like a novel or whatever, the story needs to be there, right?

Because otherwise it's not going to be a book that people read. Same thing with movies, I would say.

Paul: Agreed. Agreed. Right. Uh, can you talk about, I mean, that's, how, how much, how much better can I say that? That's, that's, uh, that's what it's all about. Story is everything. And every, all, everything we do in visual effects should be to support the story.

When VFX.

Pedro: But that's not what happens most of the time.

Paul: That's basically what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because. The bigger studio based filmmaking is all about spectacle, and it's all about appealing to as broad an audience as possible, uh, across the world, not just in the, in the U. S. It's one of the reasons I love in the film.

It's because it is story first character first. Everything we do is just to support that, uh, and, and, and the more invisible my team and I can make our VFX to support that story, the better. You know, I, I, it's one thing you go see Guardians of the Galaxy. The VFX are really, really obvious, right? You go see an, uh, an indie film where, um, where the VFX have just been done in a way to support the story.

The, the, to me, the best compliment that anybody can ever pay me is what VFX. Right. If they can't see what we did, then, then we did our, we did our job. Right. Um, so that, I think that's a great place for us to, uh, to, uh, to end, uh, here. So really briefly, what, what are you working, anything that you can talk about, what are you working on right now?

Pedro: So I'm fully committed with Comp Lair. So we really are making a difference in the, in the industry by basically supporting people that are really experienced, people that have been doing this for 10, 15, 20 years. Some, some of them sometimes more than that. They really want to make a difference when it comes to the management side of things in, in their leadership roles or the ones that want to attain leadership roles, and that's basically my focus.

Um, and this is what we're doing. So people, if they would like to know more about like what we have to offer, they can go to our website. But one thing that anybody can, can do, uh, for free is, uh, go into a link that I can give you if to, if you'd like to give to your audience, but they can also find that on our website, which is a scorecard, which is called growth ready scorecard, which is basically a scorecard that tells them.

How much they are in the positive way of growing their careers. And they're going to receive a report at the end, a nine page report with suggestions, taking into account their score and seeing suggestions for them to get better at different aspects of their professional life for them to be, you know, uh, in, in, in the right path for, for, for growth into careers, because that's basically what we're all about.

It's making sure that everyone's career is on growth trajectory.

Paul: Oh, that's fantastic. What's the address? What's the URL for your, uh, for

Pedro: complairvfx. com they can find us there for sure. Everything that, uh, we're all about. And then our YouTube channel, which, um, you know, we started with, uh, with the podcast, we don't do the podcast anymore, but we have like a lot of, every week there's a new video coming out.

More regarding the things that I just mentioned before, it could be growth and mindset for growth. Um, not only for experienced people, but for any type of professional that would like to grow in their careers.

Paul: That's great. You're doing a great service to the creative industry and to VFX folks. And, uh, as somebody who taught college for 20 years and mentored young people, like that is an invaluable thing.

I, uh, I really commend you. Um, On and how you're sharing your knowledge and your expertise with, uh, with people who are coming up in the, in the industry. It's what it's what people really need. And it's one of the reasons, like you said, why it's not always a good idea to start your career as a freelancer.

You need mentorship. You need. People to teach you what you don't know. Right. Uh, and that's great. You don't know what you don't know. I don't know what you don't know. Exactly. Uh, and so, uh, so if you're a compositor or VFX professional out there, uh, in search of some sort of mentorship. Pedro and Comp Lair, uh, are a good, a fantastic resource for you.

So that brings this episode of VFX for Indies to a close. Thank you so much to my guest, Pedro Andrade, for being here with me today. And thank you for tuning into our discussion. If you enjoyed this episode, please like follow, subscribe, leave a comment or review all the things. Every little bit helps us get the word out about our show.

For Foxtrot X-Ray, I'm Paul DeNigris. Thanks so much for being part of the VFX for Indies community. See you next time.