Visual Effects and Firearms Safety: Towards a New Standard for Safe and Efficient Action Filmmaking

On March 31, 1993, actor Brandon Lee was shot and killed on the set of the film The Crow after a prop firearm malfunctioned. Now, as the film’s 30th anniversary has passed and a remake is coming soon to theaters, the world is watching as the New Mexico courts litigate a similar tragic on-set shooting, one which claimed the life of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. Injuries and deaths due to the use of firearms on-set are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT avoidable. We’re going to talk about how visual effects, planning, and a commitment to safety can make all the difference, and make sure that Halyna Hutchins is the last person to ever die due to the use of firearms on a movie set.
This is more than a discussion; it's a call to action aimed at eliminating on-set tragedies.

Hear our guests share their unique insights and experiences with firearms, both personally and professionally, and reflect on how gun culture has shaped the film industry. From the dramatic impact of firearms in storytelling to the evolution from real guns to airsoft guns and digital effects, we cover it all. Our shared anecdotes and memories paint a vivid picture of the industry's transformation towards safer practices.

Explore how modern visual effects technology enables filmmakers to create realistic gunfire without compromising safety. We delve into protocols for using prop weapons, the necessity of firearm training for actors, and the advancements that have made airsoft guns and digital muzzle flashes the new standard. This episode underscores the collective responsibility to prioritize safety, ensuring that no one else suffers due to preventable on-set gun accidents. Tune in for a comprehensive look at how we can make film sets safer for everyone involved.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:20:23

Paul DeNigris

On March 31st, 1993, actor Brandon Lee was shot and killed on the set of the film The Crow after a prop firearm malfunctioned. Now, as the film's 30th anniversary has passed and a remake is coming soon to theaters, the world is watching as the New Mexico courts litigate a similar tragic on set shooting, one which claimed the life of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins.

00:00:21:01 - 00:00:39:17

Paul DeNigris

Injuries and deaths due to the use of firearms on set are 100% avoidable. We're going to talk about how visual effects, planning and a commitment to safety can make all the difference, and make sure that Halyna Hutchins is the last person to ever die due to the use of firearms on a movie set. Today on VFX for Indies.

00:01:00:01 - 00:01:21:16

Paul DeNigris

Welcome to this episode of VFX for Indies, a podcast about the intersection of visual effects and independent filmmaking. I'm your host, Paul DeNigris, VFX artist, filmmaker, and CEO of boutique visual effects shop Foxtrot X-Ray. This episode is a little different than our usual format, and that we're going to discuss one topic in depth and feature the input of a number of our previous guests from our first season.

00:01:21:16 - 00:01:50:00

Paul DeNigris

I met Halyna Hutchins once, briefly on a zoom call when we were doing VFX for a film that she was the cinematographer on, called Arch Enemy. The morning I heard about her death on the New Mexico set of Rust, I was in a hospital bed recovering from a heart attack called The Widowmaker. I had had my own brush with mortality, and hearing that she died on the same day due to negligence on set had such an impact on me that when I started this podcast, I knew I wanted to do this episode before I had even booked my first guest.

00:01:50:02 - 00:02:08:19

Paul DeNigris

One would have thought that the waves that were made by Brandon Lee's death in 1993 would have ensured that this would never happen again. But here we are 30 years later, and it's still a topic we're discussing. I'm here to tell you, and my guests will support my claim that onset gun fatalities never, ever have to happen again.

00:02:09:12 - 00:02:35:11

Paul DeNigris

First, let's hear from some of our guests about their relationship with guns. So you understand that this isn't coming from one side or the other of the gun control debate. This isn't political. My guests run the gamut from gun enthusiasts to people who would never pick up a gun outside of a movie set. First, we'll hear from Jeremy Tremp and Scott Conditt, directors of the film Max reload and the Nether Blasters, and the co-founders of Offensive Marketing Group, a company that specifically serves the firearms industry.

00:02:35:12 - 00:02:42:05

Paul DeNigris

They're followed by avid shooter Rick Ravenell, who you may remember from the special Star Trek episode that kicked off our first season.

00:02:42:07 - 00:02:56:11

Jeremy Tremp

Probably both of us grew up around, you know, firearms dads kind of had had guns, took us out shooting kind of thing. I think that's pretty similar for both of us. personally, I, started taking photos for firearms manufacturers.

00:02:56:12 - 00:03:01:17

Jeremy Tremp

Oh, man. Back in like 2014. Um... and you had been, like, writing for...

00:03:01:17 - 00:03:09:19

Scott Conditt

Yeah I had been writing for a few publications that were firearms centric. Both survival firearms, just a fascination with that kind of stuff.

00:03:09:20 - 00:03:22:01

Jeremy Tremp

Yeah, yeah. So that when we linked up, and formed this business in 2018, 2019, somewhere around there. we wanted to we wanted to, you know, we made the movie.

00:03:22:03 - 00:03:44:06

Jeremy Tremp

We'd been all things to all people as a production company. And that's why it's challenging to operate production company like that. And so we decided, hey, if we're just to specialize, and just really knock it out of the park for an industry, what's cool? Like camping, fishing, hunting, firearms, just fun outdoor stuff that goes bang and goes fast, and, you know, any anything like that.

00:03:44:06 - 00:04:18:07

Jeremy Tremp

And so we created this company to service the kind of stuff that we're interested in. and so that just took off like a rocket ship bringing our cinematic, classically trained storyteller mentality. and, you know, decades of experience to that. Yeah. and that just kind of took off like a rocket ship, and we that we quickly realized how important firearms safety and understand everything about firearms, was going to be to our success as a business, to operate safely, to service the clients properly, to not make rookie mistakes.

00:04:18:09 - 00:04:42:05

Jeremy Tremp

You know, the the community is very discerning and they will let you know immediately what you messed up. Oh, yeah. and so we took ... man. I mean, personally, I've taken over 500 hours of firearms training from room clearing to sniper, you know, training to all kinds of stuff just to know more about, the community, the products, you know, safety and to be a better advocate for the community.

00:04:42:05 - 00:04:51:22

Jeremy Tremp

Really, because, I think that's a that's an important aspect in this politically charged climate. yeah, I guess that's kind of word vomit. Kind of.

00:04:52:00 - 00:05:01:14

Scott Conditt

No, it's great man. And a part of it, too, was through the filmmaking side of our life. There's two facets to that. It's all story, no matter how you slice it. But we've been honored.

00:05:01:16 - 00:05:24:18

Scott Conditt

had the honor and been privilege to do documentaries and short format docs on pretty much all of the the big major firearms manufacturers, in the States. and getting a chance to talk with their engineers or technicians, the service members, both military and police, who end up being the end consumer for many of the products that they make.

00:05:24:19 - 00:05:48:14

Scott Conditt

It's been neat to hear their stories. It's been neat to help to tell their stories. and then on the other side of house, it's incorporating our love for action cinema and like you said, all things that are big go bang explosion, aliens, monsters, you know, Schwarzenegger era cinema. that's big for us, too. So we found a way to infuse that through the the content we make for a lot of this industry.

00:05:48:16 - 00:06:11:23

Rick Ravenell

Yeah. So I'm on a competitive shooting team that I've been on for about 2 or 3 years now. I've trained with firearms for over eight years, doing training with LAPD, SWAT team type stuff and then also target shooting, competitive shooting. kind of everything under the sun. I got introduced to guns early on with a little BB gun and wanted to learn safety and just wanted to get better at it.

00:06:11:23 - 00:06:15:03

Rick Ravenell

And that led me to, doing competitive shooting now.

00:06:15:03 - 00:06:21:20

Paul DeNigris

Next, we'll hear from Paul Osborne, director of Fluorescent Beast, followed by Robyn August, director of KillHer.

00:06:21:22 - 00:06:42:21

Paul Osborne

Well, I mean, I'm not I'm not a gun guy. but, you know, I think I don't know if it's a male thing or an American thing or American male thing, but certainly guns are exciting, you know, like when you see him in a movie and, oh, somebody's got a gun or you've, you know, I if you've, you hold a toy gun and you play that, it's cool.

00:06:42:23 - 00:07:01:06

Paul Osborne

that said, I have never owned a gun. I do not plan to own a gun. I do not own a gun now. And I will probably never own a gun. And, And, you know, I moved to the UK, and, one big perk of moving here is that I don't have to worry about guns at all.

00:07:01:08 - 00:07:38:10

Paul Osborne

And, you know, knowing my son goes to school and doesn't have lockdown drills because they’re not worried about an active shooter getting into the school. And, I know he'll probably come home, you know, not perforated. Those are, those are, big things to help me sleep at night. So, my relationship is I like them in movies, and I and growing up, I grew up in Colorado, and, you know, I had a neighbor who was a responsible gun owner and owned a lot of guns, and he would go out and we would do that, you know, with his son, my friend, his son, and we would do the shooting tin

00:07:38:10 - 00:08:00:06

Paul Osborne

cans and stuff. So I've shot guns, I've handled them. I know how to handle them safely. I was trained by him. he's ex-military. that said, you know, I, I'm not a fan of them in real life, and I am in favor of, a lot of gun control. not complete ban on all guns.

00:08:00:06 - 00:08:19:01

Paul Osborne

I believe they're responsible gun owners or you know, can be responsible, but I certainly want to. I certainly don’t think that we should have assault weapons. And I'm pretty big on, I would like to see a lot of legislation passed in the United States during this gun epidemic. That's my relationship with guns.

00:08:19:01 - 00:08:25:12

Paul DeNigris

so that said, you, include guns in quite a bit of your your work as a filmmaker.

00:08:25:13 - 00:08:29:08

Paul Osborne

Oh, right. And in fiction, they're very exciting, you know?

00:08:29:08 - 00:08:47:07

Robyn August

yeah, I, I personally don't own, a gun. I'm not saying I probably never would, just haven't had one in my life. But I did grow up with guns, because my father is, ex police officer, and we used to go shooting when I was a kid.

00:08:47:09 - 00:09:08:02

Robyn August

and I've gone shooting recently, a few times with him, at a range. But other than that, you know, I don't own a gun or carry a gun. but I do know a lot of people that do, law abiding guns, owners. but, yeah, yeah, I just kind of. I grew up around it a lot.

00:09:08:04 - 00:09:20:19

Robyn August

so it doesn't scare me as much as some people that might not have had that experience. but I'm also not, like, a, you know, crazy gun person that's, you know, packing a bunch of guns.

00:09:20:21 - 00:09:27:00

Paul DeNigris

Next up, a writer, producers Joe Russo and Chris Lamont, followed by director Peter Paul Basler.

00:09:27:02 - 00:09:31:17

Joe Russo

I've only gone shooting recreationally a couple times.

00:09:31:19 - 00:09:51:10

Joe Russo

I'm not a I'm not a gun guy. I mean, I love action movies. You know, I enjoy, I enjoy watching, Arnold Schwarzenegger with a Gatling gun in Terminator 2 just as much as I think anybody else, you know? but, I don't own a gun. I have no interest in owning a gun.

00:09:51:12 - 00:10:24:02

Joe Russo

and I will never forget when I was in middle school, our teacher at the time was talking about, you know, getting his son, his license, and he put the car keys on the table. He put a gun next to it, and he said, these are these are equally as dangerous, you know, and I've always kind of thought about that and, you know, and obviously, you know, I grew up at the time during the, The Crow fiasco.

00:10:24:04 - 00:11:09:22

Joe Russo

I was pretty young when that happened. and when we lost Brandon Lee and, so that's always kind of, like, loomed over me, like the danger of guns on set has always kind of been something I've thought about and been conscious of. And when I brought guns into my short filmmaking, you know, when I was getting started, I always had someone who knew guns really, really well on set, to be inspecting them and making sure they were they were empty to, you know, again, to try to just minimize the risk of having the weapon, you know, nearby, and so I, I've always kind of been thinking about that.

00:11:09:22 - 00:11:17:08

Joe Russo

And obviously the conversation around it has been changing a lot, so to speak. What about you, Chris?

00:11:17:08 - 00:11:32:09

Chris LaMont

I hate guns. I hate the idea of guns. Never, the only time I've ever held a gun. When was when, Joe and I were on the set of, Hard Kill. And the weapons, the weapon or the armorer had these badass, like, machine guns.

00:11:32:09 - 00:11:52:17

Chris LaMont

You remember Joe and I held that. I'm like, wow. Yeah. This is this is pretty, pretty intense. but, yeah, no guns scare me. And I think that, you know, from a dramatic standpoint, too. I mean, just the idea of a gun, is a complete game changer when it comes to the dynamic of storytelling as well.

00:11:52:17 - 00:12:20:14

Chris LaMont

I remember somebody once told me, like, once you introduce a gun into a scene, like, everything changes. And so, I mean, from, and I love action movies as well. I totally get that. but, you know, they’re needed for story, especially in movies. I mean, how many people like myself have never held a gun, really? or shot a gun, but you're sort of, you know, escaping into a world where people will have a lot of guns and shoot them and such.

00:12:20:15 - 00:12:27:09

Chris LaMont

but Lord knows, I hope I never, you know, have to deal with guns ever. In my life if I can avoid it.

00:12:27:11 - 00:12:42:20

Peter Paul Basler

I don't, own a gun. personally, I am big in the Boy Scouts. came up through the Boy Scouts as a youth member, and, now I'm a leader. And so, rifle shooting, shotgun shooting, BB’s, archery.

00:12:43:00 - 00:13:04:01

Peter Paul Basler

That's all part of our program. It still is. and so that's been my connection, through that program, I shot a 22 rifle. I shot a shotgun. when I was a little kid, I was way into, like, A-Team. the Star Wars movies and so forth. Rambo, even James Bond. So there's a lot of stuff with guns and gun violence in the media.

00:13:04:07 - 00:13:20:18

Peter Paul Basler

And so we would play with prop, with, toy guns running around the neighborhood. to my mom's chagrin, she, she was not happy that I did that, but it was something that I needed to sort of get out of my system. it was interesting for me, when I got to a certain level in scouting, you know, I did it.

00:13:20:18 - 00:13:43:20

Peter Paul Basler

And then I was like, hey, that's cool. And then I've done it. I, I'm politically, you know, aware of, gun violence and so on and worry about that as a father of two, and, and think that probably some common sense restrictions would be helpful. I kind of know that as sort of a fact in my mind.

00:13:43:20 - 00:14:03:04

Peter Paul Basler

You know, I'm one of those kind of cats, but overall, I think, you know, I've done the gun thing my kids are in scouts as I said now. So they've, you know, earned rifle and shotgun. I see it as a tool, like anything else. Right? A weapon can be a tool. but, you know, it's not something that's part of my life.

00:14:03:04 - 00:14:14:00

Peter Paul Basler

I'm not a guy who goes hunting or, just, you know, shooting as a, relaxation or, it's a hobby. It's not. Not in my wheelhouse.

00:14:14:02 - 00:14:20:13

Paul DeNigris

Lastly, we'll hear from Corey Gilbert and Frank Ziede, who primarily make action movies and often have prop guns on their sets.

00:14:20:16 - 00:14:29:09

Corey Gilbert

I have really no relationship with guns in real life. I've never fired a gun. My relationship with guns has always been props in filmmaking.

00:14:29:11 - 00:14:47:03

Frank Ziede

I grew up in Arizona, so when I was born, the doctor cut the umbilical and they gave me a gun. So welcome to Arizona. Now, I grew up, target shooting and, you know, never, never was into hunting, but I've had a, an educational relationship with guns, so I know about them.

00:14:47:03 - 00:15:07:02

Frank Ziede

I know how they work. I know they operate. And, I’d watch Die Hard, probably like, 4 or 5 times in the theater. And then I recorded it when it was on cable, on a micro cassette recorder. So I was listening as a child to the sounds, the audio sounds, and I could tell the difference between an MP5 and a Beretta 92.

00:15:07:03 - 00:15:26:03

Frank Ziede

So it's like I. And what happened for me as a kid, I'm also a freehand artist. So I would draw guns. I would draw the design, the technical specifications of the optics, the scopes, the rails, the stocks, the magazines. So I grew up around guns. I don't own any real guns. And I, you know, it's not a part of my day to day life.

00:15:26:03 - 00:15:30:09

Frank Ziede

But as a filmmaker and an action fan, they're a part of it.

00:15:30:11 - 00:15:43:12

Paul DeNigris

So now you understand where each of these guests are coming from. Several are very comfortable with guns, while others aren't. But you'll start to hear a pattern how each of them talks about the use of prop guns on set. Let's hear from Peter Basler again, followed by Frank Ziede.

00:15:43:14 - 00:16:09:07

Peter Paul Basler

I came up in the industry, and I started it was, VFX were not as prominent as they are now. And it was this idea of you shot at and captured on film, and what you captured on film was what you got so practical effects, was something that I had been aware of as an assistant director and had had some facility in, having, you know, a guy with an air gun off camera.

00:16:09:09 - 00:16:29:19

Peter Paul Basler

So the actors shooting and, and then he's actually hitting the target and stuff like that, all capturing it within the camera. So I, you know, I, I've had some facility with, with blanks on set, though I haven't personally use them in a film on my own as a director. so I within scouts get to talk a lot about filmmaking.

00:16:29:20 - 00:16:57:09

Peter Paul Basler

during Covid, we actually ran an online camp, and I showed a sequence from, El Mariachi, Robert Rodriguez, his first no budget movie, which is a he's kind of a hero of mine as an independent because of what he did with that no budget, literally spent 7000 bucks. And he's like a Hollywood guy now. in it, they have a making of - and I show parts of it, but I always have to do a preamble with I'm not advocating for you to do this on the real set.

00:16:57:09 - 00:17:25:12

Peter Paul Basler

You'd have, armorer, blah, blah, blah. They're holding a weight belt and they have a blank with a condom full of blood. And they put to have you have a blank on the guy's chest and it goes off, and then the guy's in actual pain, feels it. Right. knowing that and some of the history as well, my former writing partner was an actor who was on the set of the original Crow, and he was in the scene that Brandon Lee got shot.

00:17:25:14 - 00:17:48:23

Peter Paul Basler

So, it's been very close to me. because of that, we collaborated on a few projects, in the late two 2020s or late 2010s, early 2010s. and it's something that I'm always, been sort of keenly aware of from a safety perspective. I also think, too, when you come up through scouts and you're taught respect, there are a range, rules and all this stuff.

00:17:48:23 - 00:18:04:12

Peter Paul Basler

It is very regimented in the best sense. There are serious things that you must do in order to hold something that can be deadly and the safety aspect of it, and your responsibility as somebody engaging in that activity is drilled in to you as a young kid.

00:18:04:12 - 00:18:05:04

Frank Ziede

so anyways, I

00:18:05:04 - 00:18:16:06

Frank Ziede

became a person who wanted to be incredibly confident about guns and weaponry and so when it came to filmmaking, I, I think it was because of my education in guns.

00:18:16:08 - 00:18:30:04

Frank Ziede

I grew up with the, the rules. Right. Never put your finger on the trigger unless you're ready to pull it. always be aware of what's behind the target you're shooting because you're not only going to shoot it, but you're going to shoot what's behind it. Never aim the gun at anything you're not willing to kill or destroy.

00:18:30:06 - 00:18:36:05

Frank Ziede

And that healthy education was like, take it seriously. Do not screw around

00:18:36:05 - 00:18:54:01

Frank Ziede

because you or someone you know or something will get hurt. So whenever it came to the first man, what was the first short I did? I think it was Shooter way back in the day. I used plastic MP5, so these were like cheap target, Walmart, Kmart.

00:18:54:01 - 00:19:14:01

Frank Ziede

Back when there was Kmart, plastic guns that didn't even shoot anything. They just you pull the trigger and it was like, click, click, click, click click. but good old can a flat black spray paint would turn that into something that looked good on camera. And then I started to get a little bit of budgeting and got into a couple more shorts.

00:19:14:03 - 00:19:40:10

Frank Ziede

And I started to research that world. And man, I would have loved to have had full muzzle flash, like in Heat with the M4 and an on set, you know, a weapons wrangler and safety coordinator and all those things. That would have been great. But that's not my life. So I was the one stop shop. So I discovered airsoft and it started with what were called EAG’s, which is electric airsoft guns.

00:19:40:10 - 00:20:00:17

Frank Ziede

They shoot a 6 millimeter plastic BB. If you got shot with it, it would give you a little bit of a welt, but it definitely won't kill you. And from there, I learned about what are called GBBs gas blowback airsoft weapons. You can find these on many different websites all over the world. the biggest popular in the United States, a place called Evike.

00:20:00:18 - 00:20:20:21

Frank Ziede

Evike.com. They all sell with an orange muzzle tip. And that's the federal regulation. What typically happens is you buy an extra tip that's black, you put it on, and you can only use that on set. definitely can't take it out of public in that way. But this gave us as an example, your podcasters can't see it.

00:20:20:21 - 00:20:21:16

Frank Ziede

But this is,

00:20:21:16 - 00:20:45:05

Frank Ziede

this is a gas blowback weapon. None of this is real. And so we're looking at, Magpul Masada, 223 caliber assault rifle with, you know, eotech optic and, a viewfinder and a Magpul Oversize magazine. None of this stuff is real. And this one is a real 100 round magazine.

00:20:45:05 - 00:20:58:12

Frank Ziede

But I cut it out, took all the internals out, so it's totally defunct. It can't actually do anything. It can't actually hold any bullets. But this this prop operates like a real weapon, but you can't put a bullet in there.

00:20:58:12 - 00:21:04:18

Frank Ziede

So no way, shape or form can this thing become a lethal weapon unless I try to beat you to death with it.

00:21:04:20 - 00:21:26:18

Frank Ziede

Which would really be, you know, extreme. But what this gives us is the capability to have on camera realism, with the the peace of mind that nobody is going to have a situation like a Brandon Lee or the situation with Rust, with Alec Baldwin. And that's, that's totally separate. That's a whole separate conversation about set safety.

00:21:26:18 - 00:21:33:23

Paul DeNigris

The death of Brandon Lee looms large throughout the conversations I had with these guests. Here again are Jeremy Tremp and Scott Conditt.

00:21:34:01 - 00:21:53:20

Jeremy Tremp

Dude, what a waste. What an absolute waste of precious life. I mean, there's, it's gross negligence to its maximum. Like it absolutely does not ever need to happen. Yeah. and I think a lot of it is, is it's cutting corners. It's being complacent. It's trying to save money.

00:21:53:20 - 00:22:08:00

Jeremy Tremp

It's going too fast. Like there's so many reasons this happens. But at the end of the day, it should never, ever happen. And it doesn't need to happen. Yeah. all the safety protocols that have been put in place, all the options, all the trained professionals.

00:22:08:02 - 00:22:20:03

Scott Conditt

Yeah, it's a craft. Right. And there are, there are there are rules and there are technologies that absolutely could mitigate, and completely avoid the possibility of that occurrence from happening nowadays.

00:22:20:03 - 00:22:38:09

Scott Conditt

And you see that at the highest level, with films like John Wick. Right. And that team does an insanely good job in ensuring that their set safety and protocols are the best possible, whether that's replacing and not even using live armaments and replacing it with muzzle flashes and they do an exceptional job.

00:22:38:09 - 00:22:56:04

Scott Conditt

But if you're working on an indie set, regardless, it's you treat every firearm with the respect it deserves, even if it's a, set safe, you know, prop firearm and it's always a tragedy with something that could have been absolutely avoided happens regardless.

00:22:56:19 - 00:23:21:21

Scott Conditt

in this case, it was loss of life. And it's just. Yeah, it's hard not to get. Yeah. Emotionally incensed about it because the world we come from, day to day at the business with Offensive Marketing Group, the people we work with largely in part are not actors. on camera, we cast from pools of military veterans active and, you know, retired and law enforcement and special operators.

00:23:21:23 - 00:23:39:03

Scott Conditt

And it doesn't matter if everyone in the room has stood around and seen that that firearm was cleared. Before we go do another take, we will check it again. Right. and we'll say, please, for your own safety, let's just do another safety check before we go on this take. It takes half a second. Yeah. but it can save the rest of someone's life.

00:23:39:05 - 00:23:56:13

Scott Conditt

yeah, it's it's a bummer, man, to hear that kind of stuff happen. I remember sneaking into The Crow when I was a kid, and it was such a sad thing. You had that amazing talent that no one will ever see another picture from ever again. Or they won't get to spend moments with their family. Right? Something that could have been avoided, right?

00:23:56:15 - 00:24:22:17

Paul DeNigris

As Scott says, this is something that 100% could have been avoided, especially now when visual effects technology is so affordable, so ubiquitous, so woven into every aspect of modern filmmaking. It is absolutely unconscionable that Halyna Hutchins son will now grow up without a mom. When there was absolutely no reason that a firearm capable of delivering a fatal payload should have ever, ever been on that set. Again, let's hear from Paul Osborne.

00:24:22:19 - 00:24:29:16

Paul Osborne

Right. Well, especially now, like, you know, we do live in the digital age where it is. It's so much

00:24:29:16 - 00:24:45:13

Paul Osborne

it's easy to add a muzzle flash with visual effects and ... the ones that I've, you know, seen added, tend to be actual practical muzzle flashes that are shot in controlled conditions and uses plates and visual effects.

00:24:45:15 - 00:25:09:01

Paul Osborne

So they look real and they look proper and, it's less expensive to have a visual effects artist put in a muzzle flash. You can you can even get, go on the internet, you can find, free ones. You can put it into Avid or Resolve or, or Premiere that are pretty good and apply them yourself very easily.

00:25:09:12 - 00:25:28:21

Paul Osborne

so it's cheaper, to have an armor and a policeman and all the things. It's safer. And, so I don't see the there's no there's no reason to do it. There's no reason to have a live gun on a set. And anybody who's like, well, you know, you lose some kind of authenticity. You really don’t, you really don't.

00:25:28:23 - 00:25:47:13

Paul Osborne

If you look at the John Wick movies, which are made by former stuntmen, I mean, I've seen behind the scenes footage and those are, you know, long tracking shots with actors jumping in out of frame, shooting each other point blank range. If you see the behind the scenes footage, there are no gun shots. Those are all added in post-production.

00:25:47:15 - 00:26:10:02

Paul Osborne

There's no live rounds going on, and there's no reason to have them. There's no well, the muzzle flash looks more authentic. No, it doesn't, you know, film or film-like video is, 24 frames per second. There's 24 still images captured for a second of shooting. When it's played, your eye tricks you into thinking it's motion.

00:26:10:02 - 00:26:40:01

Paul Osborne

It's not motion. There's information missing in between those frames. It's not being captured when you're firing a gun and you're shooting it, you're filming it. You often will miss the muzzle flash between the frames. You'll miss this when you capture perfectly. When you perfectly capture muzzle flash, there's, one frame where that muzzle flash is full on. Maybe 1 or 2 supporting frames either side of you see a little bit of the flash, but it's that one frame, and when you don't hit it right, you don't see it.

00:26:40:01 - 00:27:03:03

Paul Osborne

So when you see got, you see a movie. Now when they're doing live rounds, shooting live rounds on set, they're still adding the muzzle flashes in post over the production muzzle flashes. There is no reason for it, in my view. It's just a waste of money and endangering people. That's my personal opinion.

00:27:03:05 - 00:27:15:01

Paul DeNigris

And, I would, I would tend to agree with you, as a visual effects artist, obviously, I would much prefer to do, visual effects, muzzle flashes, than they're done on set...

00:27:15:01 - 00:27:32:17

Paul Osborne

When you do a practical one, it’s, you know, it’s getting the guns, getting real guns. You’re getting the blanks are getting an armor. Who’s licensed. They’re not cheap. And then you have to have, policeman off duty policemen. They’re you’re paying them, like, $50 an hour to be there on set every day. Every hour. You do anything with guns? When you’re shooting guns you have to lock down the set, You have to.

00:27:32:17 - 00:27:53:00

Paul Osborne

There's so much more control that has to take place when you're firing live rounds. I one of my very first jobs, I was still in college. I was a PA on a John Travolta movie, and this is pre-digital era. They were doing it was live round city - guns, guns, guns, guns. They had a very good armorer and very good stunt department.

00:27:53:02 - 00:28:18:19

Paul Osborne

and it is a lot of time added in those other shoot days dealing with guns. You could do that or you could, you know, kick, an indie visual effects guy a couple hundred bucks per gunshot and, you're done, you know, and you get your film. You don't have to add production days and lockdown, you know, do all these extra controls bringing all those extra people in and no one gets hurt.

00:28:18:21 - 00:28:29:08

Paul DeNigris

Next, Peter Basler shares some of his experiences from the pre-digital era as an assistant director overseeing set safety. And then Jeremy Tremp and Scott Conditt will bring the conversation back to VFX.

00:28:29:09 - 00:28:29:23

Peter Paul Basler

Yeah,

00:28:29:23 - 00:28:42:14

Peter Paul Basler

so anytime you have a prop gun on set, you gather everybody together as an assistant director and you walk through with them. What type of a weapon is going to be on set?

00:28:42:14 - 00:29:09:04

Peter Paul Basler

Is it a rubber gun? Is it a, air gun that's been modified? Is it a water gun that's been painted black? Is it an actual gun with the firing pin removed? So not only does it look really real, it's going to operate really real. Except you can't shoot. and your job is to then bring it's usually the key grip or somebody from another department to visually inspect what you're saying.

00:29:09:06 - 00:29:25:11

Peter Paul Basler

and you do that with in front of everybody. and, you know, a set can be a, noisy place. A set can be a place where sort of the mechanisms of the set force people to keep moving, even though you need to stop and take a moment.

00:29:25:11 - 00:29:30:01

Peter Paul Basler

So, I've done that talk many times.

00:29:30:03 - 00:29:47:04

Peter Paul Basler

it's funny, I when one of the first big sort of movies I did, and I was, I moved up the ranks as an AD. They said to me back in the day when I was a little bit skinnier, they said, hey, will you play a cop in the scene? So. Sure. All right. Go to wardrobe, send me to wardrobe.

00:29:47:04 - 00:30:13:01

Peter Paul Basler

And I head to toe LAPD uniform. Here's your keys to the LAPD, you know, cop car. and so I had to drive it. I'm 6’6”. I could barely fit. I was like, one toe I was driving this thing and, wardrobe, then, put my my belt on, and the belt had a rubber pistol. And I walked on the set and the DP threw a fit because we had not had the conversation about.

00:30:13:03 - 00:30:35:07

Peter Paul Basler

And rightly so. because now there's a weapon on set, even though it's, it's rubber, it literally can do nothing. It's not. But who knows what it is, right? Right. we hadn't had that conversation, so that informed me too, early on about the set protocols and expectations on set and what you need to meet to make sure everybody's comfortable, and working safely.

00:30:35:09 - 00:30:44:23

Paul DeNigris

That's great. I'm glad to hear that, that the DP, you know, was cognizant enough to stop work and to to raise the issue. I feel like every

00:30:44:23 - 00:31:00:01

Paul DeNigris

everybody on a set from the, you know, the above the line talent to the, you know, the unpaid intern, everybody on the set has the right to demand safe working conditions.

00:31:00:03 - 00:31:15:16

Jeremy Tremp

Right. And kind of, like you said, with, with and you know, we're here talking to you VFX. I mean, there's no reason you need even blanks anymore. You can I mean, we do it all the time. We simulate, you know, the firearm, the slide or the the bolt going to the rear, round ejecting a little bit of smoke and then a muzzle flash.

00:31:15:16 - 00:31:22:16

Jeremy Tremp

We can do all of that in complete CG without ever having to possibly load, you know, a live round.

00:31:22:16 - 00:31:44:16

Scott Conditt

Yeah. Like Paul you know and our guys to they do simulate down to simulated recoil beyond the mechanics of the firearm itself cycling around and ejecting a, a spent shell. We can even alter the position, body position of the talent holding those guns to simulate that recoil, enhance their performance. So it's like, man, yeah, there's just no reason for it.

00:31:44:16 - 00:32:03:04

Paul DeNigris

So are you saying that even though you're doing you're doing productions for firearms manufacturers and using, I would assume real weapons on set, that sometimes you're just you're not cycling blanks or rounds at all through those guns that you're still doing it in VFX.

00:32:03:05 - 00:32:08:07

Jeremy Tremp

Imagine like, if we're doing something that's narrative in a warehouse, we're not shooting a blank, right?

00:32:08:07 - 00:32:18:19

Jeremy Tremp

We're not. We don't have, any of that stuff. So we'll simulate all that. Right. and unless it's on a range and there's live fire, We’re simulating all that.

00:32:18:21 - 00:32:29:02

Scott Conditt

Yeah, there are, there are closed. So there's two sides of our productions. There's the narrative, and commercial driven side of it, where oftentimes we'll do simulated rounds discharging.

00:32:29:02 - 00:32:45:22

Scott Conditt

It's just it works. And we can also do we've built profiles like you mentioned for what those muzzle flashes look like, suppressed unsuppressed, depending on the type of muzzle brake or muzzle device, that's on it. We know what those things are supposed to look like. And it can be, I mean, accurate to the point where you can show it to the operators.

00:32:46:00 - 00:32:53:09

Scott Conditt

who are very familiar with actually using those armaments in combat or otherwise, and they won't know the difference. they will be hard pressed to tell the

00:32:53:09 - 00:33:13:14

Scott Conditt

difference. There's the other side of it, whether it's product demo videos, or actual live fire required videos where we're, we're having to do live rounds and that's a whole other level of set safety and protocols we put into place, not only for ourselves, but for the entire team and talent included. In spite of how seasoned they might be.

00:33:13:15 - 00:33:40:09

Paul DeNigris

Well, I think that says it all. You know, the fact that you are using visual effects technology to realistically portray gunfire in such a way that it meets with the scrutiny it meets with the approval of your clients who manufacture the weapons, and your target audience who are well versed in how weapons behave, how they look, all of that.

00:33:40:11 - 00:34:08:21

Paul DeNigris

You're convincingly portraying the weapons in action safely through use of digital technology, without endangering anybody. The fact that you can do that at the level that you guys work at, Offensive Marketing Group, means that there's no excuse for any filmmaker out there to not do the same. because, you know, the argument sometimes has been, oh, well, it's not very convincing. digital muzzle flashes don't look real.

00:34:08:23 - 00:34:27:08

Jeremy Tremp

The funny thing is, the vast majority of firearms will not produce a muzzle flash. Yeah. So it's like if if it's muzzle, if every single shot is a muzzle flash, you don't know exactly what you're doing. And I would encourage people to, hey, email us. Right. Like reach out but find someone who knows what they're talking about to help guide you through these processes.

00:34:27:08 - 00:34:46:10

Jeremy Tremp

Because it's tough to make it look convincing if you don't understand what it does look like, how that firearm operates, where the ejection pattern is, how the recoil should feel. Right? so there is a lot of nuance that us as professionals understand about that. But you can find that, right? You can you can find the local firearms trainer wherever you live and say, hey, can I just pick your brain?

00:34:46:10 - 00:34:57:09

Jeremy Tremp

I'm doing this thing. I'm doing it for safety. And they would be all about they probably call you and say, hey, I have that same firearm. Watch it, shoot, take some video of it so that you can then recreate it. Right. It's just it's about being creative.

00:34:57:09 - 00:35:07:01

Scott Conditt

And it speaks to the irony of it too, because like, as we all know, Hollywood culture definitely informs people's perception of firearms.

00:35:07:03 - 00:35:28:11

Scott Conditt

you know, and a lot of that through the action movies and in the way that people handle them in those films. But people like, to your point, expect everyone to be throwing fireballs, and they just they don't they just don't. So the profiles and the looks and the realistic expectation, of course, depending on what production you're involved in, if it's a stylized look you're going for, or not that might be up to the artist who's creating it.

00:35:28:11 - 00:35:33:09

Scott Conditt

But yeah, if you're going for realism, there's Hollywood real. And then there's real, real.

00:35:33:11 - 00:35:45:22

Paul DeNigris

Let's hear once again from Rick Ravenell, who over the course of his career has created VFX for numerous TV shows that feature digital gunfire and is a bit of an expert on, quote unquote, Hollywood realism when it comes to firearms.

00:35:46:00 - 00:35:53:05

Rick Ravenell

Yeah. So a bunch of the television shows that I've worked on, like Hawaii Five-O, MacGyver, and they, they apparently there's always a gun shoot out in Hawaii.

00:35:53:05 - 00:36:15:11

Rick Ravenell

I would never know. But, so they use, both practical guns, and they always want to see muzzle flashes and things like that. So what happens when it comes to us, is that they ask us to add muzzle flashes. So it makes the scene feel, you know, more energetic, more scary. We want more action. We want sparks and bullet hits and dust hits and muzzle flashes all sorts of stuff.

00:36:15:13 - 00:36:31:01

Rick Ravenell

And it's, without the effects. I mean, it kind of could still work, because with my experience, when I'm shooting outside, you don't see a lot of muzzle flashes. You know, if you see anything, it's going to be a puff of smoke and the gun cycles. You see a little cartridge eject, and that's about all you're going to see.

00:36:31:03 - 00:36:39:05

Rick Ravenell

But in our Hollywood action movie level stuff, everybody wants to see muzzle flashes. So we end up adding a lot of them.

00:36:39:07 - 00:36:56:05

Paul DeNigris

So what's your what's your opinion on gun VFX versus practical guns on set when it comes to, you know, both the efficacy of, you know, how convincing, how authentic it feels and also, you know, safety on set, obviously safety is a big concern.

00:36:56:05 - 00:37:04:23

Paul DeNigris

You know, you're training, you're training to operate your gun safely in your target shooting and all that stuff. So, you know, what's your, what's your opinion on that?

00:37:05:01 - 00:37:15:15

Rick Ravenell

Yeah. So the for the gun nuts, right. We we want to see stuff that looks real, you know, like, I want to see the newest, hottest, coolest guns on TV.

00:37:15:21 - 00:37:35:05

Rick Ravenell

Because that's why I bought my first one is because of Indiana Jones I wanted his sidearm, and I got it, and I've shot it before. It's a great gun. But the problem comes with the fact when you're like, do you use prop tool guns or use real guns. If you’re using real guns You need to have armorers on set armorers and all that stuff that goes into the safety of it.

00:37:35:07 - 00:37:51:23

Rick Ravenell

Because you can train actors to do things, but you need to have contingencies all across the board for this type of stuff. So if you're using like a blank gun, a blank will cycle, which means, you know, the slide on move and then we'll go forward, which makes it look like a real gun. And there is a little bit of blowback.

00:37:51:23 - 00:38:09:17

Rick Ravenell

So the actor might, react to that, which makes it feels a little more real. You add a muzzle flash to that, some other fancy stuff. It's going to look pretty good. If you use a fake gun, it's going to look like possibly a rubber prop, and they're just going to be waving it around, you know? And that doesn't look as realistic.

00:38:09:17 - 00:38:29:18

Rick Ravenell

So I think there is definitely a middle ground there where you can use realistic looking props that have some. Maybe it's blowback, maybe it's a blank. Whatever it is that lets the actor know, hey, this is I'm shooting the gun right now because I feel like that's something that needs to be taken into account. Isn't there just kind of waving and pointing?

00:38:29:20 - 00:38:45:22

Rick Ravenell

I mean, you wouldn't do that with a real gun in real life anyway, right? So if you can make it a little bit more realistic and say, hey, you're going to be shooting here, here and there, that's a little more realistic and more believable once you add the visual effects into it. So using practical guns on set, very scary.

00:38:46:00 - 00:38:51:21

Rick Ravenell

You need to have people that know what they're doing. But if you're using replica guns, I think that could be the way to go.

00:38:51:21 - 00:38:54:18

Paul DeNigris

Right. So you're talking like, like an airsoft replica.

00:38:54:20 - 00:39:11:23

Rick Ravenell

Yeah. Yeah, it could be an airsoft replica. Something, something that looks the part but doesn't... But the problem with airsoft is it can shoot a projectile, you know, so you need to have things that are completely unable to shoot a projectile and cannot be loaded with live ammo.

00:39:12:01 - 00:39:28:11

Rick Ravenell

can't have anything come out of the barrel. I've had I've been on shows where they have orange barrels and we would remove that in post because, you know, they're like, hey, we don't want to use something that looks really scary because somebody points a gun at somebody else, even if it's in a movie. It's scary, right? But it's, you know, it's a prop.

00:39:28:13 - 00:39:40:16

Rick Ravenell

Maybe it's a little bit easier for someone to do that. so yeah, if you can find one that looks realistic enough but doesn't, it's not cannot harm anybody. I think that's probably the way to go.

00:39:40:18 - 00:39:53:18

Paul DeNigris

Several of my guests echoed Rick’s sentiments here about realistic replica guns, augmented with visual effects, as a safe and effective substitute for dangerous firearms on set. Here's Robyn August, Frank Ziede and Paul Osborne again.

00:39:53:18 - 00:39:54:20

Paul DeNigris

00:39:54:20 - 00:40:17:17

Robyn August

Well, I've never worked with an actual, functioning firearm on set. I, you know, personally, I don't think that's even necessary at all anymore to have that. I understand if, like, a production has, like, you know, police officers, a security that have, firearms that are, you know, I understand that, but like a gun that's, like, actually used on set, like in front of a camera.

00:40:17:17 - 00:40:35:20

Robyn August

I think it's just at this point with, you know, we are a VFX show here. it's like, do you need that? It's, you know, most likely even if you had a real gun, you're going to have to do some post work. So I feel like it's kind of silly to even for that to even be a thing.

00:40:35:22 - 00:40:41:14

Robyn August

an on camera gun. A gun you're using to be the gun on camera. I don't think you should be real at all.

00:40:41:14 - 00:40:55:07

Robyn August

as far as what I've used, like on KillHer, you know, we had a lot of, replicas that had, like, solid, barrels. Like, there's nothing that nothing could, traject out of it.

00:40:55:09 - 00:41:23:14

Robyn August

we had one cap gun. even that was, solid. but we still had, you know, like, probably a good 25, 30 minute, safety talk about exactly what this is. That it can't hurt you. what it will do. just so everybody was on the same page. so I always find it kind of amazing that people are, speaking of what happened recently with Rust was kind of boggles my mind.

00:41:23:14 - 00:41:47:18

Robyn August

And we actually found out about that soon after we wrapped KillHer. when that whole thing came to light, we were like, we were having 25 minute safety meetings with guns that don't even have a barrel. Well, what were they doing like... crazy? So, yeah, that's my thoughts on it. I just don't think it's necessary to be, like, for a real gun to be in front of the camera, you know, anymore,

00:41:47:20 - 00:42:12:17

Paul DeNigris

Right. Obviously, we can use visual effects to, to accomplish a lot of, a lot of the effect. The smoke, the, you know, sparks, muzzle flashes, shell casings being ejected, even. We've even animated, you know, the slide kicking back and on a pistol, when filmmakers are using just rubber guns or plastic guns that have no actual action to them.

00:42:12:19 - 00:42:26:18

Frank Ziede

So that that became the focus for me, gathering an arsenal, saving up money, buying these props and having them look as realistic as possible. But that was only part of the equation. Now what we do,

00:42:26:18 - 00:42:36:00

Frank Ziede

and this is really just out of respect for our cast and our crew. We do a full safety check on set just like it's a real weapon.

00:42:36:02 - 00:43:00:17

Frank Ziede

number one, nobody's allowed to touch any of these at any time unless that's supervised by me. And then. And then every time we do, we do a chamber check. We open it up, we look down the barrel, we do a magazine check. So as an example, here's a pistol. Right. We'll take that pistol, which looks incredibly real, but we'll go and we'll show the actor that there's no way a bullet can go in this magazine, that this is just for a little plastic BB’s.

00:43:00:19 - 00:43:07:10

Frank Ziede

We'll pull back the slide, do a full chamber check, let them look down the barrel. I'll look down the barrel with them.

00:43:07:10 - 00:43:21:01

Frank Ziede

Make sure that I'm the one verifying visually that the magazines are going in. Also, that it doesn't have air, because what happens is, is compressed air goes in these and that could projectile a BB if somebody were stupid enough.

00:43:21:01 - 00:43:42:02

Frank Ziede

Nobody I don't bring them and, but if it by chance happens you could shoot somebody in the eye and that could be dangerous. So it's multiple layers of safety. We also have a safety talk. We round up all the actors beforehand. On our very first shoot day, we let everybody sound crew, camera crew, PA’s... look at these weapons.

00:43:42:02 - 00:43:58:12

Frank Ziede

We ask them at that point, does anybody want to touch them? Come up, grab them, get your hands on them. Feel them. Look at them. Because, you know, it's really weird. They're like, can I take a picture? Like, now's the time to do that. Let's not do it when we're in the middle of a shoot. and that that gives....

00:43:58:14 - 00:44:23:20

Frank Ziede

Corey, I think we've had several people on several different sets, Black or Exile, come to us and say thank you. I really appreciate that. It gives me the peace of mind as the boom operator, that we are safe as, as a crew and a cast, so that I think that's the magic. I think it is. You eliminate the safety aspect by not having a real weapon on set.

00:44:23:22 - 00:44:41:13

Frank Ziede

And that's even a knife. Like if we're going to have a knife, I bring a rubber prop knife, but if it is a real knife, it's in my possession the whole time until it’s shoot time and then it goes back into a Pelican case. Most of the time I store all of these in Pelican cases. Try not to let them out of my sight.

00:44:41:14 - 00:44:59:03

Frank Ziede

because the other aspect is what if a cast member or a crew member takes one of these props for fun and goes off set? So now they're out in the parking lot and now they're out in the street and a cop goes by. It's just you. There's so many aspects of what you're going to do.

00:44:59:03 - 00:45:00:16

Robyn August

That's what boggles my mind.

00:45:00:16 - 00:45:17:00

Robyn August

It's like if you had, you know, obviously the type of guns that your replicas or whatever, that maybe they're marked that you could fix in post or whatever, that those are the only guns used on set. Even if they lived in like, Texas and they wanted to go off on a day off and go shoot cans.

00:45:17:05 - 00:45:31:14

Robyn August

Fine. Right? It's legal, but there's no way for that gun to actually ever get mixed up with the real guns. I just don't get that. I feel like there's got to be a very kind of logical way to not have that ever happen again,

00:45:31:16 - 00:45:35:22

Paul Osborne

Right. That is that is the key is you want to have a gun that looks real and what you want.

00:45:36:03 - 00:45:54:20

Paul Osborne

Actually, the real key is you want to have a prop gun with heft that's weighty, that weighs like a gun. If someone's if you have ... a roomful of gangsters, they’re all holding guns standing around on their sides. You can go get a, you know, go to Toys’R’us or comparable, an existing toy store, Toys’R’us isn’t a great example.

00:45:54:21 - 00:46:13:15

Paul Osborne

But you can go to a toy store and you can buy an orange squirt gun and spray paint it silver and black and have them hold it. I've done that. But if any actor, any primary actor is waving around a gun, it's got to have weight to it. So the key, the thing that I do, is I use, airsoft, BB guns.

00:46:13:17 - 00:46:32:22

Paul Osborne

They’re replica guns. They are. They're replicas, and they're molded to look exactly like guns are made of metal. They have they feel like they have the weight of guns. They have clips, they do have the little red tips on the end. So you have to go and remove those. There's a, on YouTube. There are videos on how to do that.

00:46:32:22 - 00:46:33:21

Paul Osborne

But,

00:46:33:21 - 00:46:57:01

Paul Osborne

if you're in Los Angeles, there's an a store that sells these in Eagle Rock. I forget the name, but it's the only airsoft store in Eagle Rock, California. If you go there, they have a as a whole, it's nothing but. They only sell airsoft. So one, you have an incredible selection, whatever you need. But also, if you tell them it's a prop, they will remove the red thing for you for like five bucks.

00:46:57:03 - 00:47:14:12

Paul Osborne

Additionally, they will, pin the cartridge on the inside, which what it does is it prevents even BB's shooting through the gun. So really, truly, nothing can be loaded. These are - airsoft guns are BB guns. But if that's pinned, then it will never fire a BB again.

00:47:14:12 - 00:47:23:02

Paul Osborne

And so you can. You don't even have the risk of someone taking their gun over the weekend and playing with it and forgetting to take the BBs out on, you know, Monday when you're filming like it's totally empty.

00:47:23:06 - 00:47:32:21

Paul Osborne

Also, what this does is it prevents it from dry firing accidentally. So you can fire, fire, fire, fire, fire, fire. And it doesn't dry fire on you. and

00:47:32:21 - 00:47:46:18

Paul Osborne

the way you power the gun is, is stuff called green gas. You can buy online. It's like ten bucks a can of gas, and you basically pump it into a nozzle in the base of the gun, and it powers the gun.

00:47:46:18 - 00:48:14:16

Paul Osborne

So normally with a real gun, you have a live round, there’s a little explosion, the shell, and it shoots a protectile and causes the gun to recoil and kick back. But this does this is this. This emulates that by releasing a small puff of gas, you know, sort of air, essentially. it causes the gun to, have recoil, you know, it's got and it has kickback and it has the and the hammer flies back and a little puff of smoke comes out the tip.

00:48:14:18 - 00:48:43:09

Paul Osborne

So it replicates the motion of shooting as well. So not only are you actually holding something that's weighty when they fire you have the hammer flying back, and you have an actual recoil that they can react to. so it basically it gives you the sensation and, and the reality of a gun shot for performance. And visually without the actual muzzle flash and loud crazy noise and of course, the projectile.

00:48:44:13 - 00:48:50:17

Paul Osborne

so that's, that's what we've that we always use those and that's been kind of our, kind of our ace in the hole is using these kind of guns.

00:48:50:19 - 00:49:03:09

Paul DeNigris

Yeah. Yeah. if I recall correctly, the first time that was those type of prop weapons were used on a film where the muzzle flashes were added digitally. Was the the Robert De Niro movie Ronin.

00:49:03:11 - 00:49:04:14

Paul Osborne

Is that right?

00:49:04:15 - 00:49:06:14

Paul DeNigris

That's 25 years ago now.

00:49:06:16 - 00:49:11:13

Paul Osborne

Yeah, that was that was 1998, I believe. Yeah. Yeah.

00:49:11:18 - 00:49:27:16

Paul DeNigris

That's 25 years ago. Yeah. and I remember, you know, I've, I when I was still writing and directing, I like you often included guns in my films and. Yeah, we used airsoft guns from as far back as, as, you know, 99 or 2000.

00:49:27:19 - 00:49:37:23

Paul DeNigris

Right. the fact that that's not standard operating procedure on film sets, you know, in all circumstances, it's hard to believe.

00:49:38:01 - 00:49:48:02

Paul Osborne

It mystifies me, but it is that often enough that store that I and the eagle rock that I use for my prop guns, they do it often enough that they that that's it's like, oh, you're doing this.

00:49:48:03 - 00:50:06:20

Paul Osborne

Okay, well, we'll do this. We would prep them for you that way. It's actually done its thing. It's done enough. They had just done one of the Transformers films. So it is a major movie. It's not it's not a low budget trick. It should it's really should be across budgets. And honestly, I don't understand why anybody would would choose to do it a different way.

00:50:06:20 - 00:50:32:01

Paul Osborne

There's no reality being lost, you know, in this, it's no nostalgia for the smell of sulfur. I have no idea. I don't get it. why? Any stunt person would agree to participate in a film with live rounds is beyond me. You know, I would think the stunt association would be like, nope, sorry. you know, that's just it's an unsafe working condition for no reason.

00:50:32:06 - 00:50:55:00

Robyn August

I just feel like there has to be some kind of absolute, just hard line that says, you can't do this anymore. It's just unnecessary at this point. Right? So I, I don't know, I really don't know the answers. I just know that that just seems like the most logical sense to me. But, you know, people are going to do what they want to do sometimes and break the rules.

00:50:55:00 - 00:51:01:11

Robyn August

So, unfortunately, I feel like this probably isn't gonna be the last time that this happens.

00:51:01:11 - 00:51:03:16

Paul DeNigris

I hope it is, but...

00:51:03:16 - 00:51:04:01

Robyn August

Yeah me too.

00:51:04:02 - 00:51:24:09

Paul DeNigris

You know, it's like you can't have a dog or a horse on set without you know, the, SPCA signing off on it. you know, for safety, you can't have, you can't have, on camera nudity without SAG and the person's agent and stuff signing off on that.

00:51:24:10 - 00:51:47:14

Paul DeNigris

There really needs to be, you know, some sort of a rider, I think, in the, in union contracts that say if real guns are used, you know, the performer, the performers, stunt performers, extras, actors all have the right to say, nope, not doing that. you know. Yeah. and crew people for that matter.

00:51:47:14 - 00:52:10:18

Paul DeNigris

You know, it's, it's a it's a safety thing. You wouldn't you wouldn't go on set with defective lighting equipment that could potentially electrocute your crew. Exactly. Like, all right, whatever. We're, you know, we have to do what we have to do to get the get the shot in the can. You wouldn't do that. and so, you know, walking, walking onto set, being irresponsible with your weapons is, is is the same thing.

00:52:10:20 - 00:52:27:11

Robyn August

Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I still don't think, you know, if anybody would argue against that and say, oh, you know, it's my right and all this stuff, I'm not even saying that you can't... there can't. Like I said, there's a real gun on set. Does it have to be the gun that's in front of the camera aimed at the camera?

00:52:27:17 - 00:52:49:16

Robyn August

No. Like so that's my biggest thing is like, I, I don't know how to change it, but I do feel like as far as a prop gun on camera, it is not. I feel like there's just be a rule that it can't be a real gun. I don't know. I mean, I don't I'm not a legislator. I'm not a law person.

00:52:49:16 - 00:53:05:18

Robyn August

I'm not a, you know, legislator. I just I just know that that I would I don't need to use it. You know, even if it's like, oh, it has to look real. And it's cool to say that it was real. It's like, I'll just get an amazing manufacturer to make the gun exactly what it would look like.

00:53:05:20 - 00:53:31:09

Robyn August

You know, if I really want it to look like that way, like, just it's a little extra work. Boo hoo. Like, who cares, you know? Yeah. It's not worth someone's life. so, you know, that's my thoughts on it. yeah. But yeah, I'm not, like, saying I'm anti-gun, law abiding gun. But, as far as in this industry on camera, I just don't think it's it's just not necessary anymore.

00:53:31:11 - 00:53:31:22

Paul DeNigris

Agreed.

00:53:32:01 - 00:53:42:11

Robyn August

Yeah. Do you have to have that real dynamite too? Like. Come on. Yeah. Let's just let it spark. Until it gets right down to here. And then we'll take. Put it out. Yeah, it’s like, no, man.

00:53:42:13 - 00:53:44:22

Paul DeNigris

No, we wouldn't do that. Yeah, yeah.

00:53:45:00 - 00:53:55:02

Paul DeNigris

Let's reconnect with Chris Lamont and Joe Russo, who recently had an experience with real firearms on the set of a film that they wrote called Hard Kill, which starred action movie icon Bruce Willis.

00:53:55:04 - 00:54:01:14

Paul DeNigris

So you mentioned Hard Kill, and I know you guys were on set, as you said, you were on set and they there were practical weapons.

00:54:01:14 - 00:54:04:10

Joe Russo

We were only on set for two days. Okay.

00:54:04:12 - 00:54:13:00

Chris LaMont

Well, we showed up on two. We did two day. We went the two days that we knew Bruce Willis was going to be there because I'm like, we're meeting Bruce Willis, all right.

00:54:13:05 - 00:54:38:07

Chris LaMont

These guys may have taken a beautiful science fiction script and reduced it to a one note, actioner. but damn it, Bruce Willis is in this movie, and it's John freakin McClane, and we are going out to Cincinnati in 20 degree weather, and we're going to meet Bruce Willis. So yeah, we did that, we did that!

00:54:38:09 - 00:54:38:21

Joe Russo

We did that!

00:54:38:21 - 00:54:43:23

Paul DeNigris

And they were firing. They were firing. Not live rounds but blanks. Correct?

00:54:44:01 - 00:54:44:15

Joe Russo

Yes.

00:54:44:17 - 00:54:44:22

Chris LaMont

Yeah.

00:54:44:23 - 00:54:58:04

Paul DeNigris

What was that? What was that scenario like? I mean, you know, a lot of a lot of people potentially viewing this maybe have you know, have never have never been on a set where there's a lot of automatic weapon fire. You know.

00:54:58:05 - 00:55:25:03

Joe Russo

Well, certainly it wasn't my first interaction where I, I worked on the movie The Kingdom, in 2000... I think around 2007. and so I was there for a lot of the action sequences and stunts, on set, which was, which was great. I specifically remember running Gatorades to the, the, you know, stunt drivers who had crashed cars in the freeway.

00:55:25:05 - 00:55:47:21

Joe Russo

it was it was pretty surreal. You know, things were literally on fire, as in bringing people drinks. But, you know, that that was kind of when I was, like, enamored by the magic of action movies. And then, you know, when we did, Nightmare Cinema, we fired some live rounds too, with blanks, like blank rounds.

00:55:47:23 - 00:56:10:21

Joe Russo

and so that was really my first experience with that. And I think the thing that people don't realize is how slow that process is. and it's slow for a reason, you know, a friend of mine described as, it's the Swiss cheese effect. Right. Any slice of Swiss cheese has holes in it.

00:56:11:00 - 00:56:29:07

Joe Russo

Right. But if you stack enough pieces of cheese on top of each other, eventually you close all the holes. and so there's a lot of steps that have to happen when you introduce even a dummy weapon that doesn't fire anything. You have to, you know, the assistant director has to show everyone has to show that it doesn’t fire.

00:56:29:12 - 00:57:05:02

Joe Russo

If it's not a dummy, you have to show that it's unloaded. if it's a blank, you have to walk everyone through that. So you know when things go wrong. When it comes to guns on set, they really, truly are freak accidents when they happen. somewhere along the way, someone slid a piece of cheese out from that stacked, you know, pile, and allowed something to get through, and so, you know, when we were on set for Hard Kill, I think it was no different.

00:57:05:02 - 00:57:15:13

Joe Russo

I don't remember it being any different, even though they were moving fast. Any time weapons were fired, things kind of slowed to a halt. Everyone walked through the whole process.

00:57:15:15 - 00:57:31:01

Chris LaMont

But the one thing I remember on Hard Kill was, this is that we were there when Bruce Willis was firing a gun. And the issue was, is that Bruce didn't hear action.

00:57:31:02 - 00:57:54:11

Chris LaMont

And so, Bruce, basically it was rolling. And there's supposed to be a cue for him to fire the gun. And he basically as soon as they said action, he fired. And there was supposed to be a, you know, like an action, second action for them to fire the gun and it freaked everybody out because of what, you know, like just Joe said, is that there's all these things are in place.

00:57:54:16 - 00:58:17:08

Chris LaMont

And just an actor missing the cue to fire the gun, was kind of... was something that basically kind of shocked everybody. And so there was a retool and everyone got set and they had to they made sure that Bruce had had the possible had the cue as well. But even something like that, an actor not hearing a cue completely changes the whole dynamic of what's going on.

00:58:17:10 - 00:58:43:00

Joe Russo

But the reality is, once they had all the safety things in place that had all the Swiss cheese in place. So even though he made a mistake, he missed his cue. He went early. Nobody was hurt. Nothing bad happened. Like no one was in the line of fire. you know, I think this the story came out in the L.A. Times, after it was revealed that Bruce had aphasia publicly.

00:58:43:02 - 00:59:03:04

Joe Russo

we went in knowing there was something going on with Bruce. We didn't quite know what it was at that point in time. but, you know, this came out very publicly because of what happened on the set of Rust. people were kind of looking for any other examples of this, I would say, other than the fact that he missed his cue.

00:59:03:06 - 00:59:27:00

Joe Russo

There was nothing about that experience, in my opinion. I don't think anyone. I didn't feel like I was in any danger. I don't think Chris felt like that either. Everyone was where they were supposed to be. There was. It was a very safe set. It was just an unfortunate thing. I think that happened because he was battling a very early version of this illness.

00:59:27:02 - 00:59:38:13

Paul DeNigris

Yeah, but I mean, that's the kind of thing that can happen to anyone on set, right? That's really easy, especially when you're dealing with action. You've got a lot of moving parts. You know, you may be wearing hearing protection while all the guns are being fired...

00:59:38:13 - 00:59:42:13

Chris LaMont

We all did, we all had ear protection.

00:59:42:14 - 00:59:45:06

Chris LaMont

Oh, no, it was very well, I mean, very professional. And

00:59:45:06 - 01:00:04:00

Chris LaMont

it was the first time that that I had seen any sort of live gun, gunfire on a set and, but that whole experience, you know, I walked away from that saying, gosh, do we really need to be firing blanks on sets, you know, and I understand why directors and filmmakers want to do it.

01:00:04:02 - 01:00:29:09

Chris LaMont

So then when visual effects artist started saying, hey, we can do muzzle flashes, it's suddenly it's like, wow, like that's a really safe choice that a lot of people, you know, should still should be doing. That's why it was really, you know, hard to imagine a set where they're still using blanks to me when, when, when the whole Rust situation came out.

01:00:29:11 - 01:00:51:14

Paul DeNigris

Well, you know, the point of this podcast, not necessarily to litigate with what happened on Rust because as Joe said, freak accident, and a number of different factors. But the I think more than a few slices of Swiss cheese got left off that stack. this the whole point of this is not really to place blame or anything like that.

01:00:51:19 - 01:01:02:17

Paul DeNigris

The point of this is, as you said, Chris, we can do that in visual effects. And it sounds to me like you guys have had a recent experience on another action movie that you, you wrote.

01:01:02:19 - 01:01:14:11

Joe Russo

Yeah, we had you know, we had a movie that went into production, in New Mexico for three weeks after three weeks after Rust shot was an action thriller called The Locksmith.

01:01:14:11 - 01:01:45:11

Joe Russo

And the producers very publicly declared that there would be no live guns on set. Part of it was, to, you know, respect the fact that the New Mexico film community went through a tragic experience. and I think part of it was to, you know, try to show that we could be a model, for low budget indies moving forward, that you could do, you know, this type of VFX on a budget, and do it.

01:01:45:11 - 01:01:58:10

Joe Russo

Well, I'm, I mean, you know, I've seen the end product of the movie, and I think they did a really good job with all of the gunplay in that picture. all the VFX on it look really, really strong.

01:01:58:11 - 01:02:05:03

Chris LaMont

Yeah, yeah. And if you do want to watch The Locksmith, it is on Hulu, and I'd recommend that more than watching Hard Kill.

01:02:05:03 - 01:02:24:08

Chris LaMont

Just want to throw that throw that out there. and yes. No, I mean, you know, the from you can't tell. I think that's the neat thing when you're looking at a movie like The Locksmith that made a deliberate choice to stay away from, you know, any sort of, you know, live gunfire, and you can't tell the difference.

01:02:24:08 - 01:02:46:14

Chris LaMont

I think it's kind of, you know, it's very telling to other filmmakers that this is a tool for safety. You can still use a gun as part of the storytelling process, but, you know, it's not necessary to even a hint of endangerment when it comes to the safety of cast and crew. And so safety is, is is the most important thing.

01:02:46:16 - 01:03:15:19

Chris LaMont

You know, everyone enjoys making movies, but there's no reason why someone should get hurt because, I mean, the only time someone would get hurt is because of, you know, negligence, you know, in some respect. And so I'm a huge fan, you know, personally of that, of the choice of not, you know, using blanks. And I understand that the industry, you know, as a whole is really starting to embrace this idea that you just don't need live guns on set.

01:03:15:21 - 01:03:45:15

Paul DeNigris

Absolutely. My company, we worked on one of Bruce's last movies as well, called Vendetta. And 90% of the gunplay in that movie is digital. There is a sequence where the the the lead is training on a range by himself. He's the only the only talent on screen, and he's firing blanks. Guess what? We added muzzle flashes to every one of those shots, too, because

01:03:45:17 - 01:04:05:11

Paul DeNigris

The reality is, even blanks don't always create a muzzle flash. right. And so, you know, we were adding that and yeah, the part of it is he's rusty and he's trying to get back in the groove of, of using weapons. And, and he's reacting to the recoil and it's, you know, and it's showing him going through that training.

01:04:05:12 - 01:04:40:22

Paul DeNigris

it would be kind of hard to do with, you know, dummy props and completely digital gunfire. It is doable though. There have been plenty of times where we've created recoil. You know, we've actually animated the person's arm and the gun moving, creating that recoil. There's a lot that actors can with muscle memory. Send them to the to the range under safe conditions, teach them how to really shoot, and then put an airsoft gun in their hands on set and let their muscle memory do the work.

01:04:41:00 - 01:05:05:20

Paul DeNigris

Inevitably, when discussing visual effects as a substitute for the traditional way of filming guns using blanks, the issue of realism comes up again and again. Jeremy Tremp and Scott Conditt previously mentioned that they're able to achieve the kind of realism that meets with the approval of both gun manufacturers and gun enthusiasts. So I ask my guests to talk through the issues they have when these effects are done poorly, and how filmmakers can achieve best results.

01:05:05:22 - 01:05:18:14

Paul DeNigris

First, let's hear from my fellow VFX artist Rick Ravenell about his biggest pet peeves when it comes to badly executed gun effects, and you may be surprised to hear that a lot of it actually has nothing to do with the visual effects component at all.

01:05:18:16 - 01:05:25:09

Rick Ravenell

I think it would be the slide not cycling and no, brass being ejected by the rounds.

01:05:25:11 - 01:05:44:22

Rick Ravenell

obviously the they never reload either in action movies, but that's kind of funny now. But yeah, like if you're using a pistol or a pistol, this light has to move, right? And this is a sound thing. But for striker firing guns you don't click on the empty chamber. It won't work. It just clicks once and then nothing happens.

01:05:45:03 - 01:06:00:05

Rick Ravenell

So whenever you see that, that's kind of like, okay, well that's kind of fake. But on a slide cycling, get the shell that's coming out of the, the chamber. I think all of that is, is important because if you don't do that, it just does not look real.

01:06:00:07 - 01:06:09:01

Paul DeNigris

Yeah. My biggest pet peeve is, and this happens more in indies than let's say, you know, network TV or something.

01:06:09:03 - 01:06:13:09

Paul DeNigris

is people who are handling guns who obviously have never handled a firearm before.

01:06:13:10 - 01:06:26:21

Rick Ravenell

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a big deal. when it comes to safety number one, but also selling the idea of that, that this, this character is supposed to be carrying this from their job, and they're using it like a Nerf gun or something.

01:06:26:21 - 01:06:42:13

Rick Ravenell

They're like, come on, guys. Yeah. But I mean, that's it's hard to learn, like learning the manipulations and learning how to use a gun properly is, is difficult. So I mean, I give it up to the actors who go to training, you know, one of the guys I shoot with, his name is, Taran Butler, who runs Taran Tactical.

01:06:42:13 - 01:06:57:16

Rick Ravenell

He trains all of the, a lot of celebrities, and they take it very seriously. They go to his range and learn how to do the stuff, and then, like, you'll see it in, like, The Punisher. You know, people, like that. Like they do really, really good in the movies and the TV shows because they know how to use the weapons.

01:06:57:16 - 01:07:16:10

Rick Ravenell

But, I mean, the training is expensive. And so at the very least, if you can have somebody on set that is a good teacher and able to help people learn, handle the firearms an appropriate way, then it's going to look as realistic as possible. The number one thing that annoys me is finger discipline and on movie posters.

01:07:16:10 - 01:07:31:17

Rick Ravenell

It's always on the trigger. It's like, come on guys. Like, you're just it's just so wrong... I don't know that it bothers me. Yeah, but same thing,in like a TV drama. It's, if they're clearing a room, like, you're not clearing a room with your finger on the trigger like that, doesn't that that doesn't happen.

01:07:31:17 - 01:07:43:18

Rick Ravenell

Like with your partner walking in front of people. Like you're not going to be doing that, you know? So it's like little things like that. But as far as VFX are concerned, it definitely would be, manipulations of the gun that how it how it cycles.

01:07:43:20 - 01:07:52:05

Paul DeNigris

Yeah, yeah. Because we can we can obviously add the smoke and. Yeah, yeah, the, the shell casing and the sparks and, and the muzzle flash.

01:07:52:05 - 01:08:10:18

Paul DeNigris

We can do all of that. Right. But if the, if the prop itself isn't, isn't behaving like a gun and isn't being handled like a gun, there's only so much we can do, you know. Yeah, it loses authenticity. Like, you know, there have been times where filmmakers come to us with obvious rubber props and we end up having to animate the slide.

01:08:10:20 - 01:08:16:23

Paul DeNigris

Yeah. You know, because it only happens over, over the course of three frames and it's doable, but it still never looks as good as a.

01:08:17:01 - 01:08:39:16

Rick Ravenell

Yeah. Like. Yeah. Like it like it works, you know, but like there have been, there have been times where I've had to do a whole sequence of gunfire and I ask them like, hey, well, can I, can I take the time to put this in, you know, so I'll paint out all the slides, move the slides, or add, like, you know, recoil to, like, the shoulders and the arms and stuff just so it feels a little bit better, add all the, add all your interactive lighting.

01:08:39:16 - 01:08:55:04

Rick Ravenell

Add your shells coming out, smoke coming out of the front, sparks, muzzle flashes or whatever it needs to be and just and make it feel like it's a real thing. because I do shoot outside and I have a lot of videos of me shooting outside so I can look at it and be like, hey, this is what it would look like for real.

01:08:55:04 - 01:09:15:00

Rick Ravenell

And they're like, yeah, we don't want that. We want it to look like this. You're like, okay, I just want I just needed to show you what it looked like, you know? And then when I go to the range and out there of my camera taking photos of bullet holes and shells and all that kind of stuff, because that's all reference for me, you know, I took a class where we were shooting out of cars like through windshields and things like that.

01:09:15:02 - 01:09:32:09

Rick Ravenell

You can bet I had the cameras rolling for all that. Just to see what it looks like and how the shapes of things, bullet holes and things look like it's important. See? And you don't really get the opportunity to see that very often. If you do look it up, it's going to be on movies, and it's going to be stuff that they probably did VFX on anyway.

01:09:32:09 - 01:09:34:22

Rick Ravenell

So you’re just referencing VFX.

01:09:35:00 - 01:09:43:16

Paul DeNigris

Let's hear again from Scott and Jeremy, who unsurprisingly echo Rick sentiments about training. For them, training ensures not only safety but realism.

01:09:43:17 - 01:09:48:18

Scott Conditt

Yeah, train. seek training. Seek training from qualified professionals.

01:09:48:18 - 01:09:55:18

Jeremy Tremp

Yeah, if you are really passionate about making something and you want maybe maybe that's like your niche, right? You want to make action movies, right?

01:09:55:18 - 01:10:07:14

Jeremy Tremp

Because it's hard to go, you know, the investment and training is it's not inexpensive and it's not, you know, that takes a lot of time. So it depends on how willing and how much are you going to be doing this. But yes,

01:10:07:14 - 01:10:11:22

Jeremy Tremp

ultimately if you want to be the safest possible yeah, seek firearms training.

01:10:11:22 - 01:10:17:09

Scott Conditt

And if you want your performance to be as believable as an actor, you want to know what that gun actually feels like.

01:10:17:09 - 01:10:49:17

Scott Conditt

You want to learn a few things, man, because like Jeremy was saying, our audience and modern audiences, too, just through YouTube and the enthusiasm for firearms culture, firearms, sporting training, people know a lot more than you think they might like don't assume your audience is, is dumb and the hand position on a grip or finger placement, or the way that you are carrying your firearm low ready if you're, you know, engaging in a certain scenario, all of that stuff can come under scrutiny, but you can learn a lot of those best practices in an hour with a great trainer.

01:10:49:17 - 01:11:06:13

Jeremy Tremp

Right? And even, simpler thing is YouTube. I mean, you can look up firearm safety 101, right? And I'm sure there are a million different videos. Just watch a few of them. And then if you have, I mean, who doesn't have like a prop gun or a toy or anything? Just try it out on that. Hold it.

01:11:06:13 - 01:11:24:00

Jeremy Tremp

You know, finger straight off the trigger. Don't point at anything you're not intending to destroy. What's your target and what lies beyond, you know, all these very simple, things and techniques and really just drill that in so that by the time you are on set and you have that, you are respectful. and everyone's going to be very safe.

01:11:24:05 - 01:11:42:11

Scott Conditt

Yeah. And that's a key takeaway too, is we were thinking and we heard about the instance, you know, the instances, unfortunately, of firearms tragedies on set, if all of the rules that you would apply as if that were a real firearm, on a hot range were applied on a film set, a lot of these things could be avoided.

01:11:42:11 - 01:11:56:08

Scott Conditt

Now, there's obviously more technical issues. If you're not using a plug gun and you're using, you know, blanks, that's a whole nother discussion when it comes to having, again, qualified armorers and yeah, proper set protocol in place.

01:11:56:09 - 01:12:13:10

Jeremy Tremp

Yeah. But I mean, I remember I was on a film, in probably 2009, or 10 and I was an AC and, you know, DP were on the end of a dock, and this guy's the shot is the guy is walking towards and just shooting, you know, and the guy, you know, falls in the water.

01:12:13:15 - 01:12:29:04

Jeremy Tremp

And I'm sitting there on the side of this dock at the on the lens. And this dude, you know, they’re using blanks and he just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom just shooting. And it's like, at no point did anyone come up to me and say, hey, here's the safety protocol here. That's blank gun, you know? And it's just like, hey, you're just going to get shot at.

01:12:29:05 - 01:12:46:08

Jeremy Tremp

trust that it's, you know, good. Yeah. If you're in that position and you're on set and you know, something like that's going to happen, be sure to take your own safety in your hands and say, hey, I've love to... hey, the armorer, the tech advisor, can you run me through this? Show me.

01:12:46:08 - 01:12:55:07

Jeremy Tremp

This is a blank. It's not loaded every single take because you at the end of the day, you are also responsible for your own safety. As silly as that may seem.

01:12:55:09 - 01:13:06:18

Scott Conditt

Yeah. And everyone feels that pressure on set too. And that's the tragedy. Man too is like on an indie set, especially, take the extra, hey, take the extra 10 seconds if people are saying we don't have time for safety, get off that set.

01:13:06:18 - 01:13:29:17

Paul DeNigris

Yeah. Agreed. you know, it is. The armorer’s is responsibility, but it's also the actor's responsibility. You know, you put a you put a gun in an actor's hand, and, they need to know enough to know what they're looking at, to know what to ask for, to know how to to register when the armorer says this, this and this, make it safe to be able to independently confirm that, you know, yeah.

01:13:29:17 - 01:13:30:13

Paul DeNigris

People ask me,

01:13:30:13 - 01:13:46:12

Paul DeNigris

I get asked a lot by young people trying to break into the industry. And when actors ask me what's something I could do to better prepare, I give them the number one piece of advice I give them is go take a firearms class. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you're not, they're not getting that from their acting coaches.

01:13:46:12 - 01:14:03:22

Paul DeNigris

Right. They're acting coaches are telling, go take stage combat and go take fencing. Like go take equestrian, blah, blah, blah. You know, because you're going to have to ride a horse in a movie. If you're in Arizona, you're going to be cast in a Western, right? You're going to have to throw a punch. Take a punch. Well, odds are pretty good.

01:14:03:22 - 01:14:12:23

Paul DeNigris

You're going to play a cop, a criminal, a terrorist or a soldier. Learn how to handle a fucking gun so it looks so it looks real, and so you're safe. And so everybody goes home at the end of the

01:14:12:23 - 01:14:13:02

Paul DeNigris

day.

01:14:13:02 - 01:14:13:21

Scott Conditt

Yeah, that's it man.

01:14:13:22 - 01:14:22:14

Jeremy Tremp

And if you're a director or producer, find someone that can be an armorer and the tech advisor and say, hey, you know, you hand me the firearm when it's done, I'll hand it back to the person.

01:14:22:14 - 01:14:47:14

Jeremy Tremp

It's my ultimate responsibility. And I can also advise on how their, you know, the placement, holding, etc., but have someone who knows what they're talking about. and that's not, you know, you can tell when someone's really into it and really into being that guy. You know, make sure that you have someone that's a professional that's not going to make, you know, risky decisions because they think it's cool for the for Instagram.

01:14:47:14 - 01:14:51:13

Scott Conditt

100%, know who you're working with. Yeah.

01:14:51:13 - 01:15:12:08

Rick Ravenell

Now number one, hire an armorer, armorer and a firearm safety person. whatever that looks like. Sometimes they come as a package deal where they actually might bring prop guns. You know, I have buddies that do this for a living, so they have their own prop guns. They bring all their own insurances to set because insurance is a big deal when you're dealing with firearms.

01:15:12:08 - 01:15:28:10

Rick Ravenell

You know, they are also firearms instructors, so they have their own insurance. But if you're bringing any sort of live weapons, even if they're replica stuff, you got to have insurance or because you don't know what's going to happen, somebody could throw it at somebody else and do like, well, somebody got hurt on set with a gun.

01:15:28:10 - 01:15:47:11

Rick Ravenell

This is horrible, you know. But they're also going to teach everybody's safety. You know, number one. Like they should be running everybody through like your basic four firearm safety rules, running them through how they want them to choreograph and use the firearm in the scene. And the only person that should be handling the firearm when it's not in the actor's hands is the armorer.

01:15:47:11 - 01:16:08:12

Rick Ravenell

And it's the same person. It's never anybody else. You know, they clear the they clear whatever it is, give it to the actor, let them do it. Then they're the first person back on them to take it away. So they always have eyes on and hands on the these, these firearms, you know, and then to think about like, well what other type you're going to use a using like CO2 thing, you know, make sure you have CO2 cartridges in there.

01:16:08:14 - 01:16:23:19

Rick Ravenell

Yeah, I'll make sure it's actually going to work and run the way you want it. Test these things, you know, before you get there. Like this is in your pre-production phase. Like, you know, talking to your armors, talking to your firearm specialists, like, hey, this is what I want to do and listen to them because that's their job.

01:16:23:21 - 01:16:40:05

Rick Ravenell

You know, their job is keeping anybody safe. And it is you to, you know, and then when you're planning for the visual effects part of it, really try to count out how many rounds you think people are going to be firing. You know, that's sort of the gun nerd in me. It's like people don't have unlimited capacity.

01:16:40:05 - 01:16:55:18

Rick Ravenell

Magazines, you know, and if you're if you're going to do a reload, you want to get brownie points with the people that watch these things, have them do a reload properly. You know, something cool like that, like that really shot that to us. They're like, okay, these people know what they're doing, you know? And I think it really adds to the realism.

01:16:55:20 - 01:16:59:06

Paul DeNigris

Yeah, absolutely. If you look at the John Wick movies is a really good example.

01:16:59:06 - 01:17:00:15

Rick Ravenell

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something like that.

01:17:00:15 - 01:17:20:19

Paul DeNigris

Keanu is so disciplined about his weapon. Yeah. There are, there are times in the movies, in scenes where he does reloads that weren't planned. Yeah. Because he got a, he had a jam, had to clear it while staying in character, continuing to do his choreography and reloading as if it was, you know, really life or death.

01:17:20:19 - 01:17:30:00

Paul DeNigris

Yeah. Yeah. It adds so much, you know, like you, you are 100% convinced that John Wick is the expert marksman. Expert shooter. Exactly that he's made out to be.

01:17:30:04 - 01:17:43:14

Rick Ravenell

And some of that might be might be too much to expect from some, like, from an actor. Right. But if you can give them a little bit of confidence with it, because what we've seen, like even being a firearms instructor and teaching new people,

01:17:43:14 - 01:17:48:03

Rick Ravenell

people are very timid around, around firearms and to for obviously great reason.

01:17:48:03 - 01:18:03:11

Rick Ravenell

Right. So if there's any kind of knowledge that you can pass off to them from the armorer or from your, military advisor or whatever to let them know, like, hey, it's okay, this is what you're going to be doing. This is how it's going to work. Maybe they demo it for them and walk them through it

01:18:03:13 - 01:18:17:13

Rick Ravenell

You need to have people feel comfortable with these, with these tools. I mean, it can be anything that using on set, you know, you need to be comfortable with them and trust that it's not going to hurt them. The other actors, and that there are safety precautions in place if something does happen.

01:18:17:20 - 01:18:30:03

Paul DeNigris

One last time, let's hear from Corey Gilbert and Frank Ziede. Again, a lot of what they have to say here echoes what you've already heard from Scott, Jeremy and Rick, but I think these things can't be stressed enough. Safety on set is that important.

01:18:30:08 - 01:18:41:10

Corey Gilbert

You know what's great is that you can do it all in post. Now, my recommendation is to work with someone like Frank who knows about this concept or this

01:18:41:11 - 01:19:05:17

Corey Gilbert

You know, the style of props that he's talking about, the gas powered stuff because they're completely safe and they're not real and they're not lethal and but yet they're completely accurate and not only for the actors to like, do all the motions of loading the magazines and the clips, but they're, they have the weight. And so the actors can really feel like it's real, but yet they're totally safe.

01:19:05:17 - 01:19:28:09

Corey Gilbert

So, you know, work with someone like Frank who knows about the type of non-lethal weapons that do look amazing and accurate on camera. That's, you know, that's what you should do. Because now, like he said, it's all out there now and it's affordable even for independent filmmakers to buy this stuff or even rent it. and so, you know, that's my recommendation.

01:19:28:11 - 01:19:45:01

Corey Gilbert

then I would say, you know, to the as far as like, oh, and then you can just do all the muzzle flashing in post well, it depends, right? I mean, you know, if there's like 4 or 5, that's great. But what if your whole film is like a whole war scene and then you got hundreds of muzzle flashes, then it's like, well, how much does that cost?

01:19:45:03 - 01:20:05:18

Corey Gilbert

But it's still at least safe, right. so there, that's my that would be my answer to all of that, work with someone like Frank that's steeped in it. That's a professional that's completely schooled in all of it. and basically, you know, Frank, at this point, I don't know if there's a license for what it is you do, but if there was one, you're you've got one, so...

01:20:05:18 - 01:20:08:03

Frank Ziede

Go get it? Go get that license?

01:20:08:05 - 01:20:18:22

Corey Gilbert

That's it. You know. Yeah, yeah. And then do the rest in post because it is attainable and affordable nowadays even for independent filmmakers.

01:20:18:23 - 01:20:19:10

Paul DeNigris

Great answer.

01:20:19:12 - 01:20:24:01

Corey Gilbert

And then you can give great people like Paul and his team work that they love to do.

01:20:24:03 - 01:20:25:23

Frank Ziede

Amen.

01:20:25:23 - 01:20:29:12

Paul DeNigris

How can we achieve best results for gun scenes safely?

01:20:29:12 - 01:20:52:14

Paul DeNigris

Right. So we've talked about the prop side of things at length and in detail, which is great. It's all awesome stuff. The demos of the of the gun. the couple of guns. Great. Right. So talk about the what's the next step. Right. So now you've filmed with these realistic props. What do we do next?

01:20:52:16 - 01:20:58:22

Frank Ziede

But a real quick I would go back before you filmed. There's a couple of suggestions or recommendations. I would say

01:20:58:22 - 01:21:23:01

Frank Ziede

first thing is see if there's an acting class that has tactical training in your neighborhood or in your state. There's a lot of these now where they'll have plastic guns. And sometimes a law enforcement officer has been hired, or somebody who's former military, and they'll teach you and your actors not only how to operate these weapons and make it look good on set, but they'll give you a safety briefing as well.

01:21:23:01 - 01:21:44:15

Frank Ziede

They will really lean in and tell you, and you can sort of copy that and bring that to your set. If you don't know how to give a safety briefing or you don't know what the you're not conscious of all the things people might be worried about. Sometimes those instructors in those local acting classes on how to look, authentic, playing a police officer or something.

01:21:44:15 - 01:21:47:17

Frank Ziede

They do offer those and just Google that in your neighborhood.

01:21:47:17 - 01:22:03:11

Frank Ziede

The other element, I'll say, and I said it before, but it bears repeating your set, your location is, is kind of going to dictate what you can and can't do with prop weapons. So we try anytime there's a prop weapon to make sure it's a totally closed and locked down set.

01:22:03:13 - 01:22:21:11

Frank Ziede

So no exterior windows, nothing that you know it's going to go on the outside. But if you have to do that, on our shoot, Robbed, which was in a bank, we actually went to a bank. And this day this was back like 12 years ago. They're like, yeah, you can come in here with your prop guns and shoot your, your short film.

01:22:21:13 - 01:22:43:06

Frank Ziede

But we hired a Chicago police officer so it doesn't cost a lot. You get a police officer on set, they notified the precinct where we were, but even with that, we still had two times the cops were called and came to the parking lot. The second one was near the end of the day, and they were almost surrounding the parking lot, and they were at the door.

01:22:43:06 - 01:23:03:01

Frank Ziede

And our Chicago cop who stayed with us all day, he went out and talked to him. So, you know, I can't really express that enough. If you're going to bring something in here that's this terrifying to what I would believe is at least half the public, these days, you want to make sure that you are controlling the environment.

01:23:03:03 - 01:23:27:02

Frank Ziede

So lock down what eyes are seeing what you're doing and get permission. Get permits. Don't skimp. Hire a police officer. They're just going to they're just going to look and see if you have insurance and you're doing it the right way. But from a post standpoint, how is the weapon held? What's in shot? Are you going to use gas blowback?

01:23:27:02 - 01:23:46:16

Frank Ziede

Well, great. What that does is it cycles the slide of a weapon like this. And now the VFX artist is going to try to put in a shell casing. Number one, is it necessary? Is it a slow mo shot? do you, do you need that? Do you need to do some slow-mo shot, or can you use audio to sort of do what you need to do?

01:23:46:17 - 01:24:07:05

Frank Ziede

What's the reason for really showing the muzzle flash? But if you're going to do it, I've learned this from you. Be aware of what's in the background of the tip of the muzzle is in another moving image. Is there a lot of action? Are you swinging the gun across the camera you want to just like before we said before, coordinate with your VFX artist what you're going to do and how you're going to do it.

01:24:07:07 - 01:24:18:06

Joe Russo

Absolutely. I think there's a lot of smart solutions. and, and I think but I do think it's about bridging, you know, the what, what we've done in the past with what we can do in the future.

01:24:18:08 - 01:24:31:01

Paul DeNigris

Before I make my closing remarks, I want to thank all my guests Scott Conditt, Jeremy Tremp, Peter Paul Basler, Paul Osborne, Robyn August, Chris LaMont, Joe Russo, Corey Gilbert, Frank Ziede and Rick Ravenell.

01:24:31:03 - 01:24:38:16

Paul DeNigris

I really appreciate all of you taking the time to appear on this episode and sharing your expertise, your experience, and your passion for this topic.

01:24:38:16 - 01:24:49:23

Paul DeNigris

Here's the thing I want this to be the last time we need to do a special episode like this In response to an on set tragedy. I want Halyna Hutchins’ death to be the last time someone loses their life on set

01:24:49:23 - 01:25:12:14

Paul DeNigris

Due to the use of firearms. we can eliminate 100% of future on-set gun fatalities by just eliminating the thing that causes them functional guns. A little more planning, a little education, and a commitment on everyone's behalf to safe practices is all it takes. And I mean everyone. Making a movie is a collective effort in every regard. Safety should be no different.

01:25:12:16 - 01:25:28:06

Paul DeNigris

Everyone on set, from the highest paid star or executive producer to the unpaid intern, has the right and the responsibility to say, if this doesn't seem safe, can we just take a beat and make sure that it is? No one should ever die to make a movie, period.

01:25:28:06 - 01:25:30:21

Paul DeNigris

We're an industry that gets to play make believe for a living.

01:25:31:01 - 01:25:52:10

Paul DeNigris

We're not curing cancer. We're not saving the environment. We're making pretty pictures to make people laugh and cry and cheer. No movie, no TV show is worth someone's life. So let's collectively, as an industry of intelligent and creative people, say no more, no more. If you have questions about anything we've discussed today, please reach out to me any time through my website.

01:25:52:15 - 01:26:19:21

Paul DeNigris

foxtrotxray.com. I'm happy to lend you my expertise on this subject. Thank you for being here for this episode. Keep making movies safely and I will see you next time on VFX for Indies.