The Indie Filmmaker’s Ace in the Hole: Unraveling the Use of VFX in 'The Last Deal'
Ever wondered about the gritty intricacies of indie filmmaking? We're pulling back the curtain on that world with this engaging chat with the dynamic duo behind the crime thriller, 'The Last Deal'. Editor Ryan Liebert, who has come a long way from self-funded films, shares his journey from no-budget indies to editing a feature with Hollywood icon Nicolas Cage. Then writer-director Jonathan Salemi gives us a walkthrough of how he developed the concept of 'The Last Deal' based upon the resources he had.
We take you right into the thick of things, discussing how the film was edited remotely and how that impacted the workflow. We also reveal the practical and visual effects used in 'The Last Deal' and the challenges faced while creating crucial scenes. Jonathan and Ryan share their insights on the marriage of practical and digital effects and how VFX was their secret weapon in extending the tension and creating a more realistic scene.
As we wind down, we take a deep dive into the role of post-production in filmmaking and the art of film editing. Ryan and Jonathan share their experiences of working within a tight timeline, managing limitations of budget while ensuring the scenes stay powerful. No filmmaking chat is complete without some tips and tricks. So, we wrap up the episode with some sage advice for filmmakers on how to work effectively with VFX artists and the importance of having a clear vision for a project. An exciting and informative listen, this episode promises you a peek into the behind-the-scenes process of indie filmmaking. So tune in, let's get rolling!
Watch 'The Last Deal' here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.35a95f1e-493e-49ee-b0f3-23da08699c7c?autoplay=0&ref_=atv_cf_strg_wb
Transcript
[Paul DeNigris]: 0:00
When cannabis becomes legal, a black market marijuana dealer tries to make one final score before getting squeezed out of the business in Jonathan Salemi's gritty LA crime feature, The Last Deal, this week on VFX for Indies. Hello and welcome to this episode of VFX for Indies, the podcast about the intersection of visual effects and independent filmmaking. I'm your host, Paul DeNigris, visual effects supervisor, filmmaker, and CEO of boutique VFX shop, Foxtrot X-Ray. With me today are two of the filmmakers behind the indie gritty crime thriller, The Last Deal. With us today, we have editor, Ryan Liebert, and director, Jonathan Salemi. Welcome to the podcast, guys.
[Jonathan Salemi]: 1:02
Thanks for having us.
[Paul DeNigris]: 1:05
Right on. So before we dive into The Last Deal and all of the effects that we worked on for you guys on that film, give us just a brief introduction. Who you are and kind of where you're at in your career, what you've worked on, you know, sort of the broad strokes and the highlights. Ryan, why don't you go first?
[Ryan Liebert]: 1:24
Sure, I'm an editor freelance. I've been doing it about 10, 12 years. Took a really long time to get traction, especially in film. Started kind of, you know, with very, very low budget self-funded films where I did the work for free and just basically got the school of hard knocks on how to organize and edit a feature and then undo that because the movie's not working and then redo it and make it the best you can all the way through distribution. It was a real learning process but done kind of trial by fire. I started with some colleagues that I knew who were in similar positions as me who couldn't really get hired in the positions they wanted to, so you had to do it yourself. And, you know, that was right kind of at the beginning of... DSLRs being good enough to shoot, you know, cinematically and then using Final Cut Pro to do a feature. And so again, it was done kind of very much blindly and learning lessons the hard way You know, all the while I would still work a regular job on set as a photographer's assistant and I would edit at night. And then I would take in any jobs I could get throughout the years, whether it be music videos or you know, ad-based work or, but the goal was always, I did a lot of short films as well, but the goal was always narrative. And I built some momentum for a little while doing some very, very low budget indies. And then, you know, that lasted till about 2017 and then features dried up for a while because some of the filmmakers I was working with weren't able to get funds to do another film. So I just kind of really grinded in short form and continued to work freelance, which was great. And then in about 2020, I got a really great opportunity to cut a feature with a director who had an in with a Nicolas Cage movie called Willy's Wonderland. And for me, this was like a huge opportunity. And I always tried to partner with directors. That's a big goal of mine is to become an editor a director has to work with. So anytime I've gotten a first opportunity with someone, I always tried to really knock it out of the park. And so this was no exception. You know, this director hadn't directed in 10 years and all of his, you know, all of his crew that he worked with in the past had long moved on. So, you know, I got to go out to Atlanta and be on set and, well, slightly adjacent. And I would get dailies sent to me every day and I was just grinding so hard on that. I would put in 14-hour days because my goal was to really wow everybody on this film. And by the time we wrapped our 20 day shoot, I already had 45 minutes of offline assembled. And within a week of getting back to Los Angeles, I had a first cut. And that worked in my favor in some respect, but it also exposed some aspects of how I work, that I work maybe a little too quick sometimes. But anyway, it ended up coinciding with the beginning of the pandemic, which changed everything. We had just submitted the director's cut and we were getting ready to get everyone together with producers and everything and then we all got sent home. And so I had to quickly kind of scramble to get it at home, set up, working, and then do months of revisions all remotely. And that was in the early stages of remote editing and it was a real challenge. But we ended up getting the film done. The experience was not the greatest, but I bonded with my director and we've since done four films together. all remotely. I've only seen him once in the last three years. And, you know, I've been able to find a bit of a niche doing some remote editing. No, I don't live in Los Angeles anymore. I moved back to the East Coast to Vermont. So I live rural, but I edit as if I'm in LA. And I've been able to sustain that for the last couple of years. And, you know, kind of organically met Jonathan through I believe it was a Mandy job posting ad. I was just scavenging the internet looking for more work. And he had mentioned that he saw one of my movies, not Willy's Wonderland, but one of them that stood out to him as a movie really crafted by an editor and he appreciated that and we started talking. And so when I took over The Last Deal, he had already done a full assembly of the film, and which was new for me. I've always done everything from the ground up. I don't ever work with an assist. I build my preps. I do it all myself. I’ve just always done it that way. And I like that process. It really gets me in depth access to the movie. And as I always say, it gets me on the same page as the director who's already completely inundated with the whole project. So with this, I took Jonathan's cut and I still started from scratch, but I would reference his story beats that he was trying to hit. And, you know, excuse me, one thing I really tried to do was bring a sense of rhythm. and ramp up the pace where I can. And the thing that immediately attracted to me about his movie was, you know, it had so many different locations and setups and scenes. And so the pace was already naturally there, you know, whereas certain films I've done in the past, which are single location based, you know, you enter one room and you exit a room and you start a scene in another. So this just had lots of great jumps. And I know something that was big with Jonathan was coming into a scene as if the scene was already going on. And it just really helps ramp up the energy and the pace of a film, even if it is a simple dialogue scene. And then as we continue to refine the film, one thing I greatly respect Jonathan for is he kept going out and shooting more because we just needed more. We needed more and we needed more. And particularly for our intro to the film and certain aspects of the film, he just kept having the ability to add more. And that's one of the beautiful things about being kind of unrestricted is you can just go out and if you have your actor, you can go bring them out to a bridge in the middle of the night and get that cool shot that, you know. really helps emotionally connect at that point of the film. So that experience was really cool because I would say for a post edit, it lasted longer than normal. Now they weren't like full-time days all the time, but it went on for months longer than a film that doesn't do reshoots goes on for, but ultimately a year removed from the film, I rewatched it with my wife not long ago and I was just, all those extra details, all those extra shots, all those extra scenes really bring the film to another level. And that's one of the things that stood out the most to me about it. But since then, I've done another two or three films, some with Kevin Lewis, my other director, and another with a first another first time director, which was another bit of a challenge. But, you know, just thankful to be able to cut narrative while working from home and raising two twin toddlers and just trying to keep my life in balance.
[Paul DeNigris]: 8:12
Right on. And one of the things that I really love about The Last Deal, and we'll get more into the movie as we go, but one of the things I really love about it is that propulsive drive that it has throughout it. It has its moments where it breathes, but for the most part it never lets up. It just has that constant thrum tempo underneath it, which is wonderful.
[Ryan Liebert]: 8:36
But even in some of those moments where it breathes, we added intense driving music, so it still feels like it's being propelled forward. You know, that was key. Heat was a big reference for us, and that to me always had this, do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do, just like a driving beat throughout the film, even when it was slow. And I think that was really, and then there were times when you slow it down emotionally and the filmmaking slows down with it, but it juxtaposes great against that intensity that we have throughout the rest of the film. So that was to me one of the most standout things was that sweet spot of emotional pacing.
[Paul DeNigris]: 9:12
Yeah, I'm a big fan of Michael Mann and Heat in particular. And in fact, I just I just discussed Heat as an influence with another couple of filmmakers on the podcast a couple of episodes ago. And and yeah, I definitely felt when I when I walked out of the screening, when I saw The Last Deal at Dances with Films, when I walked out, I immediately my gut was that was like a vintage Michael Mann movie. It just it had that feel. So.
[Ryan Liebert]: 9:40
That's awesome.
[Paul DeNigris]: 9:41
Don’t let that go to your head, Jonathan.
[Ryan Liebert]: 9:43
Well, the day before I started working on it, I watched Heat. As I try to do the day before I start a movie, I try to watch a specific film to give me some fresh influence. And that was an easy one, just based on the script and what I'd saw in his cut. It's like it just felt that authenticity of a location-based LA film just Heat through and through. And honestly, I leaned into that in scenes because LA is this noisy, chaotic place, and he was doing so many exterior shots. where the sound was all over the place, so I just added more of that ambience to it. Just really gets you feeling like that helicopter's coming down on you and the freeway is so loud over your head. And so, you know, having lived in LA, I know those sounds and I just, I look for that more and more as we were building out the texture of the film.
[Paul DeNigris]: 10:31
Yeah, that was the other thing I said. I thought that The Last Deal would make a great double feature with like Drive or Heat or To Live and Die in LA. Any of those classic, you know, LA neo-noirs. Yeah, it would really work well. All right, so before we dive even further into The Last Deal and how much fun it was to watch and how much fun it was to work on, Jonathan, why don't you give us a quick overview of who you are and kind of what your career path has been like that brought you to The Last Deal.
[Jonathan Salemi]: 11:00
Now, first off, I'm glad I got the black t-shirt memo.
[Paul DeNigris]: 11:05
Yes
[Jonathan Salemi]: 11:06
But second off, yes, I know.
[Ryan Liebert]: 11:07
Its a uniform.
[Paul DeNigris]: 11:09
It’s the filmmaker uniform
[Jonathan Salemi]: 11:11
I have like 20 of these t-shirts.
[Paul DeNigris]: 11:13
Yeah, black t-shirt And when we go to a film festival, you just put the black blazer over the black t-shirt and you're set.
[Ryan Liebert]: 11:18
Yep, exactly.
[Jonathan Salemi]: 11:21
My background's pretty similar to Ryan's. Same exact setup, you know, starting on Final Cut, not X, but the original Final Cut. It actually goes all the way, so my first feature was a small Super 16 feature called Ante Up, and that was back when, to get all my music, I used Myspace. So I would find bands on Myspace and then they would send me their tracks and it was amazing. It was like really feeling like modern technology at that time. But I grew up in Massachusetts and I moved out here to Los Angeles. Started at Sony Pictures at an internship for Doug Wick. Doug Wick is an Academy Award winning producer who did Gladiator, Gladiator 2 right now. Stuart Little, the Divergent series, Memoirs of a Geisha. And that was a great experience being on the lot and running the golf cart and delivering packages to Amy Pascal in person and stuff like that. And that's when I made Ante Up, which was the first feature. And then it didn't do what I wanted it to do as far as being seen. And I was very young at the time, like in my late 20s. So I didn't really have a lot of education or knowledge for what you do after you finish the film. And that's a big thing that I always talk about with filmmakers is like, you can't just think about making your cut and that's it. You really got to look at the long game. And that's like a five to ten year long game. And that's the way, not to jump ahead, but when we made The Last Deal, I look at it as a five to ten year long game for how you're rolling it out and where it's going. But regardless, so we can go back to that. But I finished Ante Up, did a couple of shorts, did three shorts. Because I really wanted to experience like getting a movie out there the proper way and how that works and those shorts did very well, which I was incredibly thankful for. And then just started doing a bunch of documentaries at the same time. So produced documentaries, which I enjoyed finding subject matters that were relevant for myself and got into TV, doing field producing, which is very much the same as as documentary work in regards to like being on set and interviewing somebody and gathering sound bites and that sort. But what ended up happening was I wasn't getting a feature. So we're talking about a almost, I don't know what you want to call that, 12 year span there. And I recognize that it was a lot of fun for me exploring a lot of the creative juices that I had, like with the different films I made, whether it was sci-fi or whatever the subject was, and I realized that in order for me to propel the career, people weren't going to hire me to make their feature, even with whatever short films I made and the success they had or anything like that, I really had to do it myself and make something a little bit more commercial. And so that's where the genesis for The Last Deal came in mind. for me to make something, the original idea was to make something for like$50,000 that I was going to make no matter what in the summer of April 2020. And I put a checklist together of all these elements that I had access to. And that's why when Ryan spoke about all the locations, those were all elements that I had access to. And then I reverse engineered a movie, like had the elements and then was like, okay, what's my story? And then how can I put as many of those elements in there as possible? And so yeah, so that came about in October 2019. I had that checklist, like pounding the pavement, trying to find out what the story is. And I should also add, it's very hard finding a screenplay. Like, Ante Up went into the Sunset Five. I don't know if you remember the Sunset 5? It’s now, I think it’s an AMC 6 Dine-In. It's on Crescent Heights and Sunset. So like kind of... like the biggest indie venue in the country. And it played there and it was really good. Like it opened me up to opportunities, but even with that, it's near impossible to find a screenplay unless you're one of the majors or your roommate or yourself. So you really have to do it yourself. And I came up with the idea October 2019 for what The Last Deal would be about. And it literally, I had an outline within a week. I was writing the draft by January. I finished the draft in January and I was in pre in January. Pretty crazy. And then I was rewriting it, not rewriting, but I was doing my normal organic flow of making my subsequent drafts from January till we started shooting in August. So it was an interesting situation because I know how your first draft is complete shit. Or at least for me, it's like it's not that good but I know the process and how long it takes to make it into a moldable, feasible form that you can shoot and I just trusted that I was like, okay by the time I get on set I'll have that. and so that's what we ended up doing and Ryan came on when I had the assembly cut because, you know, we're dealing with a very low budget film that fifty thousand grew because I ended up getting investors and all that and that's how I ended up getting Ryan and I didn't know who my editor would be, but I knew the process from doing this plenty of times that, hey, I'll get into post and I'll figure it out. I'll just keep it moving. And I did, it was very fortunate that there was never a lapse. And I made the assembly cut and I knew that I needed to make the trailer and all that to get a quality editor aboard. I didn't want somebody that was going to work deferred or... was going to make very, very low skill. Like I wanted a legit person that could cut the film that was qualified, that I didn't have to repeat things to, that I didn't have to, there's a term called frame fucking, that I didn't have to do any of that. I mean, I don't think I did Ryan,
[Ryan Liebert]: 17:48
You sure about that?
[Jonathan Salemi]: 17:51
Maybe a couple of times, but it was so minimal. Like working with Ryan was very seamless. And so yeah, and that's how I got Ryan. I don't think I would have got him all these other elements weren’t in place. And he came aboard very grateful and got that, which creates a very seamless post-production process. Someone that also understands all the technicals of post and I don't have to have problems when we're doing our online. I was gonna use an expletive there, but I didn't. But yeah, so it was very seamless. You know.
[Paul DeNigris]: 18:29
You already said frame fucking, so that cat's out of the bag. You can feel free to curse as much as you want.
[Ryan Liebert]: 18:32
That’s a technical term
[Paul DeNigris]: 18:34
I agree, and in VFX we have pixel fucking, right? It gets even smaller than the frame.
[Jonathan Salemi]: 18:39
So that's the short story there. And then yeah, the Michael Mann was definitely a key part of the whole thing. I remember during the winter of 2019, as I was writing the script, I read Thief in front of the fireplace. I've seen Thief before, but it was like, hey, I wanna see his early words. Michael Mann wrote Thief. And yeah, before Ryan started, he sent me a picture. of the beginning heist with Wayne Grove and the hockey mask, I think. I think it was Wayne Grove and the hockey mask. And so yeah, so that's what we went with. We had our game plan, like, hey, we want to make this like, Thief, very energetic, always moving, really feel the environments. My sound, post sound team, who did an amazing job, Michael, over at Naga Sound. That was something I kept hammering into him. I was like, hey, I know it goes against your norm, but I really want to feel the environment We did a very good job of recording in these environments and I want to feel it. Really put that helicopter in there, really put that train, really put that siren, we have it there, I want to feel it. I know it goes against your Netflix notes and all that stuff, but that's what I want. Within means. It's gotta be a compromise. And he did that and he like exploded. Like it was just amazing how much he did that because you can only do so much. Cause with post sound, you really have to like take out a lot of the post, the environmental sound. So this way you can hear the dialogue clearly. But, um, and I respect what he does. And I was like, Hey, you know, as much of those notes that you can put in there. Um, and I think he felt the aggressive nature of that and, and did it to a point where it wasn't, um, bad. I can't think of the bad word, but diminishing returns. So yeah, that's kind of the short story there.
[Paul DeNigris]: 20:45
Yeah, and that's certainly the soundscape certainly helps make LA. And I know it's such a cliche, right? Everybody says, oh, LA is a character in the movie. Every right. But it really is like the like I couldn't picture the last deal as it is now being being set anywhere else, right? It's the texture and the character of Los Angeles is just so woven into the movie that it feels very specific and grounded. I think enhances the overall experience. Why don't we give the audience just a quick synopsis like back of the Blu-ray cover synopsis of The Last Deal, and then I'll roll a clip of the trailer. Sure, so I haven't said the log line in a while, but The Last Deal is about a black market cannabis dealer who attempts to make one last deal when marijuana becomes legal in California before he gets squeezed out of the business. That was an excerpt from the trailer of The Last Deal. Give you a little flavor of what the movie's about. Let's do a little bit of a dive into the VFX because we ended up doing about 60 VFX shots for you guys. I don't know if you had other vendors that were working on the film that maybe did more but we touched about 60 of the shots and it kind of ran the gamut. Some of it was just... sort of our standard cleanup stuff. Hey, I can see the actor's mic sticking out of his shirt, things like that. Some of it was, as you would imagine, it's a crime thriller, little bit of gunplay, not a ton, certainly nowhere near the bullet ballet of things like Heat. But guns go off and we did some little flashes there. But then I think the biggest and most difficult shots were some fairly complex makeup things that we... we did to enhance some of the effects that you guys had done on set. Why don't we just start there? Like, how did you come to VFX? Because from my perspective, it felt like you hadn't really planned VFX as part of your process, right? That most of these shots had been discovered in post, but maybe because I didn't come onto the film until post, maybe I'm not fully understanding how we got there.
[Jonathan Salemi]: 23:50
Yeah, so I knew we needed some VFX, but before we start any picture, you know, you might have a boom mic or shadows or something like that. So I knew baked in there would be that. And I was hoping... and the gunshots, I knew the gunshots would have VFX. But outside of that, I was hoping for minimal. The mic stuff that just happens, which you took care of that, which was amazing. The big one was the blood gags. Paul, you did like, you just blew that out of the park. Like that's just an amazing part. Everyone always comments on it, like a huge part of the film. And what we did there was we had the practical on set. So we shot that one day where we had the practical and the shot we're talking about here in question is a neck slice. And we had our special effects person on set. with the pump that went up the back of the shirt under here. And he had the prosthetic or the, however he made it, so on Mister's neck. So you couldn't see the valve or the pump there. And then when we slice his neck, you know, he hits the, I think he had like an oxygen tank or something like that. He hits that and then it just blows up and comes down. Now, These things are incredibly temperamental. They don't always work. We had complications on the day. And then when it was time to do it, as the sun was setting, it didn't exactly work. It was like a trickle. It was like a couple of trickles, if you recall. I think it was like two or three. Like there was one mainstream and then maybe a couple other small ones. Or I think the first one, no, the first one actually was just bad. It was just bad. And it went in the back and it went all down Mister's back, Mister's the actor, and he just had blood all over him. It was a mess. So we had to go back the next day. I think we did a five day shoot schedule, so Monday through Friday with weekends off. And we're like, hey, let's go back on Saturday. Is everyone free? And by everyone, we just needed Mister, Special Effects, Dominic, who was our DP. And then myself, I was like, hey, I'll hold the reflector or the flag or whatever. So we went back, let special effects take their time, do their thing, and they did it, and it didn't exactly work like the way we wanted it to. It was the plate that we ended up using that you used, which was one long stream, and then it was a couple smaller streams. And it just didn't look good. And I was like, I can't have that. And I forget oh wait, how did I get in touch with you Paul? Is it through a mutual friend?
[Paul DeNigris]: 26:48
It's... I don't even remember it feels so long ago.
[Jonathan Salemi]: 26:52
It was definitley a mutual friend. It was someone you worked with before. And I got in touch with Paul and you saw it. And then I think we all collaborated. Ryan did the original cut. He even thought it was lame the way it looked. And Ryan's pretty blunt. He's got a deadpan bluntness. And if he says it doesn't work, it doesn't work. So we gave it to you. And I forget how many versions of that we did but He just did an amazing job with not only utilizing the practical in combination with the VFX, which I think made it really stand out, but also doing the saturation on the shirt. So as it's coming down, we see the saturation and like, I couldn't have been more pleased with how that came out.
[Ryan Liebert]: 27:39
It's such a critical moment in the film too, and we knew that going into it. It's one of the hardest scenes, it is the hardest scene to assemble in the whole film because of the amount of moving parts and the emotional beat that happens when our lead character sees his friend basically get executed in front of him. And the practical took you completely out of the moment. And there's no hiding from that. You know, you guys do your best on set to get it in camera and And I do my best to cut it practically. So if you didn't have the absolute ability to go into VFX and make it better, we still have the best version of it that we can possibly get out of what you got on the day. And what was interesting about that one is that once we knew we had a bit of a VFX plan we started adjusting the edit slightly because then we now know we could sit in that shot longer, whereas before we couldn't do that. And again, it was such a critical moment that it had to enhance the realism and when we saw it finalized with an audience, it was worth all of that tinkering because of the moment. It was powerful and it paid off.
[Paul DeNigris]: 28:46
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, that was that was a challenge. That sequence, there was a like four or five shots in the sequence as the blood And even a Christopher Nolan movie, there's tons of CGI, there's tons of VFX But the biggest challenge was, like you said, that prosthetic that was on his neck on Mr's neck. It was problematic. And I can I can definitely see a version where knowing that the exposing the seam, because as he as his head gets pulled back and exposes that the seam of the prosthetic And you know, you don't want to hold on it for very long. Right. But in the, in the final cut, because we ended up rebuilding his neck, we stole pixels of his neck from like two or three other shots in the sequence and basically rebuilt all of the skin and the stubble and razor burn and everything that was going on in his neck, we rebuilt all of that and tracked it in there so that when the dude with the knife pulls his head back and they hold it. There's a beat where we're holding it for quite a while as your lead character is anticipating that this is gonna happen. And so you could stretch that moment out. So it's a really good example of how the VFX process enabled you guys to really tell that story beat the way you wanted to tell it.
[Ryan Liebert]: 30:05
And enhance the tension. Cause that was so much in that moment was trying to build the tension. And you're right, if we would have left it as it was, I couldn't live in that shot long enough because it would just read fake and whatever. So being able to build that moment up as long as possible is something I'm always trying to do. And that was super helpful to be able to live in it and feel real, and have it feel real.
[Paul DeNigris]: 30:28
And I want to stress this, you know, because I do talk a lot about, we do a lot of work that is us enhancing practical makeup. And I want to stress this for any filmmakers who are out there who are listening or makeup artists who are listening, anytime we're talking about, anytime I'm talking about enhancing the work that practical makeup people do on set, it's never meant as an insult to that work. I'm not taking anything away from the work that the practical effects people do. You're hampered by the limitations of time and money and daylight and all of the things that we fight against for literally every shot in an independent film. When you add the complexity of some sort of prosthetic effect and then make up, or blood, that has to spew on cue and it has to time out with the actors, you know, the actor moving the knife and the actor reacting to being cut, there's a million things that can go wrong. This is a really great example where the practical and the digital help each other so much, right? Because we were building this completely from scratch where we had no reference for what the practical blood was doing, how it was falling, how it was catching the light. And the actor didn't have that feeling of having that prosthetic effect happen to him on set that he could play off of. Doesn't matter how good my visual effects are, I'm now having to like invent everything from whole cloth and not, not having the reality of the scene to kind of latch on to. So it's a it's a beautiful marriage of like practical and digital. So I hope any practical effects people who are listening to this are not are not feeling like this is a criticism of your arc. You guys are amazing. The stuff you do makes the stuff I do so much better.
[Jonathan Salemi]: 32:14
Exactly. And I think going forward, it's even a case, because you're dealing with science here a little bit dealing with gravity and science and, and that sort, um, when you're dealing with special effects and it's not always going to work, you know, according to the way the director envisions it working. Um, and I think going forward, just knowing like, Hey, can special effects and VFX work together to make this the best possible. And, you know, going forward, that's something that I really want to do, you know, as an artist is work with those two all the time. Be like, hey, you know, special effects nails it, like, like gets it like dream scenario, like, like shooting star, like, then great. But like, if they if they can't, which is like almost an unattainable goal sometimes, then, you know, VFX just enhances it, you know, just helps it. It's much the same of like your DP working with color grading, you know. Like a lot of your DPs are, speaking in the lower budget world, they're maybe correcting on set and having it pretty similar to the way it's going to look. And maybe something is a little underlit. And then your colorist is enhancing the windowing that and creating more light or exposing it greater in a certain part of the screen. That's no knock against the DP. It's just teams work in tandem. I think those are two teams. that can work in tandem, at least for me, like as a filmmaker. Like seeing what you did, Paul, and what special effects did. That's something I definitely wanna do because I know guaranteed, I'm gonna get the result that I want.
[Ryan Liebert]: 33:57
And it's utilizing all the tools in your toolbox. I mean, everybody wants to get it perfectly practically in camera, the purest filmmaker, you know, but the truth is, is that it's really hard to get this stuff in camera and, you know, having the ability to make every aspect of your film as good as it can be is what you really should be striving for. So, you know, and that's, again, one thing that's so hard about being a director, I think is being relentless in your pursuit of getting it the best you can do within your budget time and framework and all that. And certain things are non-negotiable and a scene like that is non-negotiable. It has to really sell. So you know, the two have to work together and if anybody were to get offended because their work got replaced digitally, you know, the scene is better because of it and that's the reality of the film. You know, we're all trying to make it as good as we can.
[Jonathan Salemi]: 34:51
Yeah, because like the biggest, one of the recurring themes for me during making the movie is I've watched enough of movies in my life. We all have. And all three of us have worked in the low budget world enough that we know when things don't look professional. Like not professional, but like Hollywood big screen standard. And sometimes it's a matter of five percent. I've been saying this for years, sometimes a matter of five percent that makes your film not look like a higher budgeted Hollywood film. And in my head the entire time, it's not driving me like my motivation for directing the actors or anything like that, but it's like the things that I can control, I never want it to look like it's not a Michael Mann film. That's what I'm trying to make. I'm trying to make a huge ass movie. And I'm not allowing myself to not get that. But meanwhile, you do have to compromise. And I'm not saying The Last Deal looks like a Mann or whatever film, what I'm saying is, is how close to that can I get with what I have? And that was always, and everything, that's my main goal always, is to like, that's where I wanna work, so that's what I should make.
[Ryan Liebert]: 36:08
I mean truly, that shot is, as you said, it's a great example of what we're trying to do here in indie, right? Like it's, we're trying to make intense films as real as possible and we need all the tools we can get. And that's just a great use of everything we got in our tool belt.
[Paul DeNigris]: 36:25
Yeah. but because the cinematography, the acting, the writing, the music, the sound design the, you know, the sound of the of the knife through skin, the sound of the blood coming out, you know, all of that works together. The film is the sum of its parts. The reason I bring up the whole, you know, my sensitivity to how I talk about the practical effects trades is because there often is...there's, I think, way too much of this dialogue particularly in the general public about, well, CGI is bad, practical is good. And filmmakers like Christopher Nolan, who are wonderful and really focused on getting in a camera, they kind of feed that narrative of CGI bad, practical good. And I don't wanna add fuel to that fire and be the guy who is like, no, CGI is better because the practical is fucked up and we fixed it. That's not it. It's about there always needs to be a beautiful marriage of the two. that he's not talking about because it doesn't fit the narrative of how he wants to portray what he does, which is fine. Unfortunately, VFX people get the sort of get the brunt of, oh, there's too much CGI or too much bad CGI in a movie. And I always say like, too much CGI or too much VFX is a, that's kind of an illegitimate criticism. That's like saying, Ryan used too many cuts in the movie. Jonathan's DP put too many lights up in the scene. It's a tool. It's not a matter of too much. It's a matter of did we use it right?
[Ryan Liebert]: 38:05
I was gonna say, a lot of the greatest effects work, digital effects work is invisible, right? You shouldn't see it. And it should feel real. And so much of, I know what you did for our film and what I've seen in films that I admire, that it's an invisible hand in the film that's still meant to just keep your audience focused on the story and the emotion. And all of that stuff supports that. And, you know, it... Yeah, the people that say Nolan doesn't, it's just so good you don't see it and you never will. And that's what we try to do even at this level is to try to make it invisible and to try to make it as photo real as possible.
[Paul DeNigris]: 38:46
Right. You know, I'm on a mission to try and educate everybody that I talk to when I, when I see those posts on social media, Oh, there's too much CGI. No, the CGI didn't support the story or the CGI took you out of the story. It's not that there's too much. It's probably that there was not enough time, not enough money. And it's probably that it distracted from, they were trying to fix something that they didn't spend time on, like writing a good script, you know, shooting the right material, et cetera. So you're not really reacting to the quality or the amount of CGI, you're reacting to the sum total of the parts. And the CGI is the thing that sticks out because it's been sort of slapped on like a coat of paint that doesn't belong.
[Jonathan Salemi]: 39:28
Yeah, because we've all seen movies that are really good, where the VFX and the CGI is not very good, but doesn't take us out of the story at all. And, you know, I think that's when you have a good marriage is where, you know, the VFX CGI is complementing the story. You know, you're at the mercy of the story at all times.
[Paul DeNigris]: 39:50
So it sounds like, you know, coming out of The Last Deal, you've got a new appreciation for kind of practical and digital working together. And it sounds like that's something that you're gonna explore further in future projects, Jonathan. What other takeaways came from the VFX experience or the post experience in general that may affect the stories you're gonna try and tell in future movies or kind of how you're gonna tackle those stories?
[Jonathan Salemi]: 40:16
Um, well, the immediate thing I thought of, uh, and I knew some of this or a lot of this prior just from past shoots was there's a lot of things as a director that you don't need to fix on set that I can fix in post. And that's the worst thing to say, like, we'll fix it in post. But, but, but there's certain, there's certain things that if you see on set that, you know, Hey, this will take X amount of time to fix now. Meanwhile, I know, okay, I know that's an easy fix. We'll fix that in post. for VFX things, not for... That term gets thrown away around way too much and not to use it the wrong way, but stuff like that, making me a more efficient director. That's probably the best way to summarize it. In regards to story and using VFX, you know, there's the whole aspect of gunshots if you wanna go down that road where you can do that in VFX. I personally really like the blood aspect. I mean, I've seen movies where, I still like squibs, you know, but I've seen movies where they use too much VFX blood and you can totally tell, like it's VFX blood spraying. But I think mostly it's working in tandem, like the marriage between the two departments, knowing that you can elevate a project.
[Paul DeNigris]: 41:34
Yeah. Ryan, how about you? What, in terms of the VFX process on The Last Deal, might have surprised you aside from the throat slash thing, because I think we've really dissected that one, pun intended. Maybe going into a future edit, what's something about the VFX process that you might incorporate into a future project? Yeah, sure. So from my perspective, The Last Deal was actually very light on effects work compared to some of the horror films I do. And since The Last Deal, I've done two horror films, one that's finished and out and one that's in finishing right now. And they have heavy effects sequences. And I often don't know what level of VFX we're going to have. It's not within my control. I have to do the best practical edit I can do with the plates that I have, with the, you know, the gags that are done practically and whatever. And I have to have an imagination as to what I think this can be. How much time do I need to allow in order to sell this with effects? Can I use this shot? It looks cheesy as it is, but I know effects can do this. So I have to really open up my imagination and try to envision the shot with a... with a VizEffect that's not even remotely designed yet. Because unfortunately on the budget tier that I work on, I don't get to work in tangent with VFX. There's not a back and forth. I'm not working with animatics or templates that are being worked. I have to really either rough it myself or imagine. And then we have to do that all the way through the approval process of directors cut, producers, because it doesn't necessarily go into effects until we're picture locked. And... So that was what was a little different on Jonathan's film is we were able to parse out pieces of the film to you as we were still working because the post-process went on about a year, not blaming you, Jonathan. But when I have three months, well, again, this was a very different experience. Sounds like he’s blaming you, Jonathan.
[Ryan Liebert]: 43:39
Well, again, this was a very different experience.
[Jonathan Salemi]: 43:41
I’m never calling Ryan again.
[Ryan Liebert]: 43:44
But generally I have three to four months to do my offline and I basically, I turn over conform prep to a finishing house and they take it from there. But I still have to build these sequences knowing they're gonna go through a VFX world. So then, you know, I will then keep reels that are VFX heavy unlocked after I delivered them just in case I need to extend the shot another little bit or we have to pull this shot because they don't have the budget to do this one. So it's keeping me flexible in certain sequences because I know they're not 100% of what they can be yet. They will be as good as they can be once they finish effects, but I don't really have anything to say or do with that because, you know, I'm strictly doing an offline and once I ship that I'm done. So, so what it's taught me is to just be flexible in those sequences, see the possibilities in what was shot and try to use everything that's in the dailies to build the sequence out, knowing that we can fix it in post post, right? Like It still has room to improve even after we call it lock. So just staying open and flexible is the best thing I can say. I'd love to work in tangent with effects and build these sequences together, but not quite at that level yet.
[Paul DeNigris]: 45:06
Yeah, that's the holy grail, right? That's what we want. We want Jonathan to call both of us up while the script is still being polished and start having these conversations, right? And bring the cinematographer and the sound designer and the composer and all of us that are part of the team, bring us in as early as possible so we can start having these conversations. So it is that constant passing of the baton back and forth to get the best result.
[Ryan Liebert]: 45:34
Right. But I've also seen that can get a little carried away sometimes where you can, you know, you get promised the moon sometimes. And I know when we did Willy's Wonderland, we were having very, very positive early responses to the film. And we had a VFX company come on and said, pretend this is the Avengers, do whatever you want to do. And, and you know what ended up happening that ended up being a completely fraudulent company and the whole thing went under and the and the VFX became this sugar thrown on top. And so it's just, you really have to deal with what you have in front of you at the time. And, and, you know, and, and as it passes on to the next people in line, you know, they're going to do what they can to do to make the film and, you know, you just hope it helps the film and doesn't hurt it.
[Jonathan Salemi]: 46:19
I thought of an example of fixing it in post is when you're on set and you're shooting and your actor gets a performance and everyone's hugging each other because it was all amazing. And then you're watching the playback and you see the mic wire. That's an example of like, hey, we don't need to shoot that again. Like I know what it costs in post. I know what it costs on set if we redo it right here. and we waste time, but that's an example of fix it in post.
[Paul DeNigris]: 46:49
Yeah, and it's not just a money cost. It's also the cost of, are you gonna get as good a performance out of the actor? Right? You're gonna end up going, yeah, the first take really was the best, right? So now you've wasted the time to shoot it and you still are gonna use the better take and ask for it to be painted out. So you might as well just move on. It's about having the confidence on set to be able to go, yeah, we got this, let's move on. Ryan, how... So remind me, and it's a while back that we worked on this film. Remind me, were you responsible for turnovers of plates to me on The Last Deal? Or was there someone else that we, so you, so you did that. How, how often do you do that versus how often does that, you know, get, get done by whoever the is going to do the, uh, the online or the DI.
[Ryan Liebert]: 47:34
Really depends. I would say Jonathan's film is one of the few that I have done that for. I don't typically like to work with raw footage at all. So in that case we were using 6 and sometimes 8K R3D files and just very burdensome videos to put little files to work with. So no, I took a little extra. I did a little extra as far as as far as conforming that and prepping all that stuff and shipping it on a hard drive to you. Because I knew what kind of film I was working on. I knew we weren't going to an Intropic or a Sugar Studios or someone that's gonna do, that thing's gonna put in a bid to do the entire finishing process. Whereas on some of the other films I've done that have, they might be in the$1 to $5 million budget range, they've got that extra $200,000, $300,000 to send it to a finishing house. So it just becomes more of a conformed checklist that I go through to make sure that what they're looking at is the same as what I'm looking at, that the repos and stuff that I've done in the edit, the hidden things that I've done, they're all conforming properly. And just kind of going through checklists and then becoming more of a client and just reviewing the work and making sure that it's kind of what both the director and I were intending. But no, I often will send the reels out and offline material to get conformed for DI and then they'll piece out what they need for effects and just reference against my offline cut. You know, the funny thing about plates is I'll often get, I feel like they'll shoot plates all the time in a scene, it's like getting room tone. They'll shoot plates of a room and I'll be going through and I'll organize all my plates. But I never work in a plate. I will ship the plates, I can put a string out of plates together and I can ship them out separately, but I never really incorporate plates unless it's something very, very specific. And I feel like sometimes they just, do that stuff on set because that's what some effects supervisor says you're supposed to do and it doesn't help me tell the story in the edit whatsoever. I know it's a tool that can be used and it's helpful but I just again like I package those up and send those separately.
[Paul DeNigris]: 49:52
So how often are you doing what I would call a slap comp or a temp comp in the timeline? And related to that, a topic that's come up a couple of times on the podcast has been this idea of editing within the frame where you are able to take, say actor A nails it on take one, but actor B doesn't warm up until take five, being able to take a two shot. that has two actors with very different rhythms and being able to put them together in the same shot so that they're both at their best. How often are you doing something like that?
[Ryan Liebert]: 50:27
The split comping, you know, I've studied it a little bit. I don't, you know, to me, it's a very, it opens up the editorial decisions tenfold. You know, there are already a billion decisions to be made when cutting a performance. And like, I know like Fincher's team will split comp everything. And I often, you know, I feel like, You do that in ensemble shots, I feel like more when you're sharing the frame. And a lot of what I do is more singles and you know, I'll live in two shots when I can, but I, I'm not that picky to where the nodding and the pacing of the person who's not speaking needs to be adjusted. Um, unless it's egregious. Um, I have done it a little bit. Um, but not a lot. It's something that I feel like... talk about frame fucking can really hamper your progress in post, you can just get caught up on the minutiae of these things sometimes. And I'm always trying to move along my assemblies relatively quickly and go with my gut with performances. And if there's a conversation with a director feels strong about one performance and I feel strongly about another performance, I can find a way to find a nice healthy balance by just rearranging the sequence a little bit or cutting to off-camera dialogue and replacing that line. So I know that tool is at my disposal and I can use it if I have to, but to me, it seems a bit overkill. And then to your first question, I will rough in effects. I did a film where I have a plate shot of a creature yelling and their mouth is supposed to open and a hand is supposed to come out. and grab someone's face, right? And it's supposed to be, but I need to sell that in my rough edit. So I will do what I call the poor man's version of it. And I'll just mat out the hand poorly and I'll size it and place it. And I'll always put text on the bottom, you know, FPO or VFX like, but I do the best I can to sell the most important aspect of what is trying to be conveyed. And so that we know that, okay, this will work.. when we get there, when we finally have the resources and ability to do it right. And I've seen the finished product versus what I did and they're often like, the idea is there, the idea is there, the execution is far, far better. So I'm fairly weak when it comes to comping and effects work. I just don't have the patience for it. Pixels and moving one frame at a time, it takes a special level of patience. And I like to deal with frenetic pacing and 24 frames a second. So I do it when I have to and when I need to sell an idea. And then I trust that it'll get finished the right way.
[Paul DeNigris]: 53:38
Yeah, that's great. I mean, I really appreciate filmmakers who can turn over temp comps from the editor because a lot of times, yeah, you and the director may have had a lot of conversations about what's supposed to happen there. And then I'm brought in post and this is, okay, a hand has to come out of his mouth. Well, do we have timing, all of this sort of stuff? How does it cut in with the context around it? And you've already sort of mapped that out so now I can just... I can just follow your map.
[Ryan Liebert]: 54:09
it's still an editorial decision about how that hand moves. I need to make a select of that hand's movement and timing and time it with my... so it's still a very deliberate editorial selection. So I will just, I will put that up, I will build my layers up. And when I turn over, I'll put those affected layers on its own layer. And if y'all need to slip it to make it work for your needs by all means, and we'll go back and forth and make sure that I feel that the timing feels good still. But yeah, I make sure that the editorial aspect of it is where I need it to be. You know, it just might not look seamless or even remotely seamless.
[Paul DeNigris]: 54:46
Doesn't need to. On behalf of every VFX artist you ever work with from here in perpetuity, Thank you.
[Ryan Liebert]: 54:52
You're welcome.
[Jonathan Salemi]: 54:53
Yeah, it's a little over and beyond the call of duty right there.
[Paul DeNigris]: 54:57
No.. it's fantastic. And that's, again, one of the reasons I do the podcast is because I think all filmmakers, and by filmmakers, I mean not just directors, but everybody, we're all filmmakers, right? Whether you're a producer, you're an editor, you're a DP, you're a sound person, you're a filmmaker, you're helping tell the story. You need to understand a little bit about everything. Doesn't mean you need to be an expert, but you need to be able to have the conversation. You need to be able to provide what the other departments need to do their job. And that's my soapbox. I'm gonna ask each of you to kind of get on your soapbox a little bit. What is one piece of advice you would give to a new filmmaker, maybe not even necessarily a new filmmaker, but a filmmaker who's new to visual effects, who's doing a film where VFX are going to be needed, and they don't know where to start, or they just started coming to you for advice. What's a piece of advice you would give them?
[Ryan Liebert]: 55:48
Well, you know, I was thinking about it while you were asking the question. And the first thing I would say is, is don't get overwhelmed by it. There's, you know, when you're editing a film or narrative of any kind, there's certain scenes that are very easy to edit. The decisions are clear and, you know, you don't have to worry about all these extra things. And then there's scenes in the film that keep you up at night that you really, you don't know the potential of it because... it's going to be enhanced with effects. So, so to not get overwhelmed by the unknowns that you're facing when you're building that sequence and then to have an imagination and try to visualize what you want it to be while you're cutting it, you might not be able to replicate that, but really try to have an imagination with it and try to allow yourself the time in the shot to, to pay off what you're hoping will be accomplished with effects.
[Jonathan Salemi]: 56:47
Yeah, and to his point, definitely have a vision for what it is that you want. Because I think sometimes what can happen, not just with VFX, but with DPs and editors, is if you're new to this, even not new, you could end up like being very passive and going with the direction that they're choosing, not the direction that you want. And then that puts both you in a corner where now you deliver this thing, and then the director's like, hey, that's not really what I want. But I just did all this work. So I think, really think about like, what is, know your vision, what it is that you want How can you communicate that, but then collaborate with your VFX guy or with your editor to make the product that you want. So this way there's the least amount of backwards. And you're gonna occasionally have backwards, but if you're consistently going backwards, you're just gonna frustrate everybody. Have a vision, stick to it, but know you need to compromise.
[Paul DeNigris]: 57:47
Great advice, both of you, great, great advice. Where can people find out more about what you're up to and where can people watch The Last Deal?
[Jonathan Salemi]: 57:57
So The Last Deal is here in the States. You can watch it on Starz and Encore. It's free on demand there, or you can go to Amazon, or your favorite platform, Apple, Vudu, Google. We also have a version in Espanol. So it's a beautiful dub. It's an amazing dub. I sounded like Trump there. It's a beautiful dub, but it's a great dub. I really liked it. And then it's also in Ireland and the UK. Both of those are on demand, so go to your favorite platform there. It's also in Korea. So I don't know about North Korea, but I know it's in South Korea. So you can watch it in all those places. And then if you wanna learn more, I highly encourage people going to our Instagram,@theLastDealmovie. We tend to update that a lot. We've been very fortunate. We... We've been on a lot of podcasts and we've had a lot of reviews and fortunately they all been favorable. Um, so yeah, please check it out.
[Paul DeNigris]: 59:07
Ryan, how about you? Where can people find out more about what you're up to and keep track of upcoming projects?
[Ryan Liebert]: 59:14
I mean IMDB is the best spot but I have a website ryanliebert.com where I just I will update you know the films that I've that are that are out. I have three films in finishing right now. Obviously it's a little slow right now and we're not quite sure how long it's going to last but you know I've got two films coming out in ‘24 one slated for ’25. So keep a lookout for a movie called Oak, a movie called Don Q, and then a movie called Pig Hill.
[Paul DeNigris]: 59:51
Well, thanks so much for being part of the show, guys. It's been a really great conversation. Great catching up with both of you. And I'm sure that the audience will benefit from your wisdom and your experience. So thanks so much for being here.
[Jonathan Salemi]: 1:00:05
Thank you, Paul.
[Ryan Liebert]: 1:00:05
Thanks. Appreciate it, Paul. Thank you.
[Paul DeNigris]: 1:00:08
And to my audience, if you're watching this on YouTube, like, subscribe and a comment will go a long way towards helping us reach our audience. And if there's something that you want to see on future shows, please be sure to comment and let me know if you have questions for these guys, please post the comments and I will convey those questions to them. And if you're listening on iTunes or Spotify or one of the million podcast aggregators out there. Something like a star rating, a review, and a follow would also be very, very helpful. And if you have an indie filmmaker in your life who needs to hear this stuff, please send them the podcast. On behalf of everyone at Foxtrot X-Ray and on behalf of the crew that puts together the VFX for Indies show, I'm Paul DeNigris, and I say thanks.
