Realistic Action Movie VFX with Frank Ziede and Corey Gilbert

Ever wonder how independent filmmakers navigate the maze of creating compelling films on a budget? Join us on a captivating journey with filmmakers Frank Ziede and Corey Gilbert, as they dissect their creative process and share the highs and lows of independent filmmaking. From their shared adoration for Michael Mann's cinematic masterpiece "Heat", to the trials and triumphs of creating their own digital assets in projects like Robbed, Black, Volition, and Exile, these filmmakers reveal the in-depth process behind their art.

Can you imagine all the elements that go into creating a realistic, budget-friendly explosion in a film? Corey and Frank spill the beans on the complexities of creating explosive scenes that leave audiences in awe. The duo stresses the importance of teamwork and finding the right tribe that supports your vision. We delve into how a positive on-set culture can remarkably affect the overall atmosphere of a project, and how their distinct backgrounds in dance, choreography, graphic design, and photography all come together to create a unique filmmaking dynamic.

Aspiring independent filmmakers, take note! This episode is brimming with invaluable advice and wisdom from our guests. Hear about the vital role of pre-production planning, the necessity of recruiting the VFX team early, and why creating an animatic for project sequences is a game-changer. By the end, you'll have a newfound appreciation for the art of independent filmmaking, the dedication needed in the process, and the significance of having a solid plan while working on a VFX project. Tune in, and get ready to be inspired by Frank and Corey's passion for filmmaking!

Transcript

[Paul DeNigris]: 0:00

Two Chicago filmmakers channel their shared love of Michael Mann's heat into a series of grounded and gritty short films with an eye toward keeping the action real and the VFX invisible on this episode of VFX for Indies. Hello and welcome to this episode of VFX for Indies, a podcast about the intersection of visual effects and independent filmmaking. I'm your host, Paul DeNigris, VFX artist, filmmaker, and CEO of boutique VFX shop, Foxtrot X-Ray. Joining me today are two filmmakers who are not shy about using VFX to tell their stories and with whom I have collaborated with a number of times over the last decade or so, Frank Ziede and Corey Gilbert. Welcome to the podcast, guys.

[Frank]: 1:01

pleasure.

[Corey Gilbert]: 1:02

Thanks. Thanks, Paul.

[Paul DeNigris]: 1:04

So why don't we just start with quick introductions. Tell us a little bit about yourselves and about your projects that you've worked on, both individually and as a duo. I know you guys have been collaborating for a long time, but you've also got your own creative pursuits. So let's hear a little bit about that. So Frank, why don't we start with you?

[Frank]: 1:21

Sure, my name is Frank Ziede. My last name seems hard to pronounce, just think of the baked pasta, baked Ziti. You can call me baked Ziti, I'm cool with that. But I'm from Arizona, born and raised, strange. I never knew Paul when I lived in Arizona, but met him later. And I lived in LA for about nine years, and then I moved to Chicago. And I was an actor primarily first, dancer, choreographer. I used to do music videos and award shows and stuff. But then... My film is always my focus and when I moved to Chicago, I needed, what was it? My wife needed a website and she was like, this guy, Corey, is from this production house called P3 Media Works. They're doing the website. So I went over there and we just started chatting and we realized that the two of us were filmmaker types and we had similar interest in movies. But from there, I collaborated with him and some other very talented people. Man, I've done about. I was thinking about this the other day, Corey, probably about a dozen shorts, a digital series or two. I've written a ton of stuff, acted in a little bit, but I sort of went away from that and just really got into making movies that I would want to see if I were going to the movie theater. And I try to be an eternal student of filmmaking. So I am challenging myself, what can I do next? Trying to stay humble, knowing that whatever it is, it can always be better. I remember an article. from David Fincher, he said, if anybody comes up to me and says, I looked at the dailies and it's amazing, it's the best stuff ever, he's like, you're lying. It can always be better, right? So stop thinking that way. And that makes him that eternal improvement when it comes to his projects. And that's why I think they're so good. So I love action genre. My favorite movie is Heat. I'm sure we're gonna talk about that. I've got posters all over my office. I also love Aliens, the second one, Blade Runner, Collateral, The Matrix. That's me in a nutshell. This is me in a nutshell. How did I get in this nutshell? So Corey Gilbert's my colleague and cohort and collaborator and he's up next.

[Corey Gilbert]: 3:29

My name is Corey Gilbert. I'm from Peoria, Illinois originally, but I've been in Chicago for probably most of my life at this point over way over half my life at this point. My brother and I started a production company, the two of us that we still run today, we're about 21 years in. We're a small video agency here in Chicago, we call ourselves a video agency because Most all of our clients from the time we started the company until now, we engage directly with us for the entire creative process. So we have a creative development process that takes us through a strategy with our clients for their projects, and then right into pre-production and production. And then we also handle outside of the big budget style VFX that Paul does. we do everything through post as well. The editing, color, sound, and all that, and then motion graphics and things like that as well. And so, my brother and I started the production company way back when we were younger with the idea that we have always loved making movies and wanted to make movies. Although I never went to film school, I did go to art school. I have a degree in graphic design and photography. I worked as a graphic designer for several years before my brother and I started our company. And so there was a bit, you know, there was like a lower learning curve for me to kind of get into the technology and stuff behind filmmaking, but I did not go to, you know, formal film school. So you know, my brother and I said, well, let's start a production company, and then we'll take the money that we make and make our movies. Well, then it becomes an actual small business and you've got your insurance and your taxes and your payroll and your employees. which is actually a beautiful, awesome thing. I love being able to employ people that went to school to be an editor or went to school to be a producer and be able to give them a career. And that's a huge, awesome thing. It's a small business, so it's got its ups and downs and it's tough, but it has enabled me to, on the side, leverage the resources of my company and make short films and make other filmmaking projects. And then... also support other filmmakers like Frank and that's how he and I met and started collaborating. And then he and I formed quite a friendship and quite a bond beyond the work that we did together. And so now we continue not only our friendship but our working relationship. And he and I have a really good rapport where he brings me projects, I bring him projects, he produces for me, I produce for him, he directs for me, I direct for him, he writes. For me, so we have this awesome relationship where we can kind of just sort of like bounce back and forth from project to project and take on different roles for each project, whether he's producing, I'm directing or vice versa. And it works out very well in both directions. And so that's just been an incredible friendship and working relationship that I've had with Frank that really is kind of the culmination of my independent filmmaking side of my world. I've got the P3 MediaWorks side, which is mostly commercial work and things like that. And that's awesome and creative as well. And then when it comes to the independent filmmaking side, I mean, Frank really is, you know, my first phone call whenever I have a new project come in. I'm like, you know, whether he's directly involved with it or not, I'm going to be giving him a call because he's going to help me produce it somehow or help me get a location somehow because the one thing he's good at. is the producing side of things like that. I mean, he's a fantastic writer, obviously, as well. But man, when there's a tough location that I really, really want to get, I just call Frank and I just sick Frank on him. And somehow we get it. So he's a natural born leader and producer. And so it makes him a good filmmaker overall.

[Frank]: 7:28

You're gonna make me cry, man. What's happening? What's going on? What I love about Corey is that he makes me a better creative. Because I grew up in the Die Hard, like, Predator era, right? Where action was about action. But Corey, and I think that's what your next question is, like, why do both of us love Heat so much? Corey always holds me accountable to say, we call it gack. Like, you know, it's got a lot of gack. We got the helmets and the guns and the lasers. That's cool. But like what's underneath all of that? And that's like, Corey always is like, we gotta make sure that we're keeping it honest and we're pushing the story, not just the props. And so it's just been, it's been a great collaborative relationship for sure. And I give all kudos to him and his brother. They, you know, have just kept doing their job and all the way through COVID, kept their company going and just. you know try to support their people and it's pretty incredible and their clients have you know rewarded them because of all the hard work so

[Paul DeNigris]: 8:29

It's a recurring theme among the guests that I have on this show that a lot of success in independent filmmaking is finding your tribe, right? Finding the people that you love working with because a lot of times independent film is not, it's almost never about money, right? It's about being creative and having fun and enjoying the journey and going on it with people that you like journeying with. Right. So you guys are no exception. And obviously a big part of that finding your tribe is finding people who have similar taste. Right. You're going to find people who not only your personalities gel, but your creative interests, the things that the kinds of movies you love, the kinds of movies you want to make are similar. And so you've mentioned the Michael Mann film Heat a couple of times and it comes up. easily wants a project whenever you guys bring me in on a project, you reference a Michael Mann movie or a David Fincher movie or a Christopher Nolan movie. It's about keeping it real, keeping it grounded. You guys are rarely making science fiction movies and even if there is a sci-fi element to your movies, it's very, very grounded in the here and now and the real world. And that's what makes it fun because everything that I, every VFX... every visual effect thing that I do for your movies has to feel real. It has to be invisible in a lot of ways, which is a great challenge. But I too am a massive fan of Michael Mann. Have been since the summer of 84, watching TV with my dad and this teaser comes on, two haggard looking dudes loading shotguns in this black convertible Ferrari set to In the Air Tonight. My dad and I go, what the fuck was that? I gotta watch that, right? So Miami Vice turned me on to neo-noir and crime stories and Michael Mann as a filmmaker and I've been on the ride with him ever since. And he, yeah, it's the high watermark of his filmmaking as far as I'm concerned. I just revisited it recently on the new 4K Blu-ray and it holds up as good as ever and it's never looked or sounded better than on that 4K transfer. So. Talk about Heat a little bit. We could easily do an hour just on Michael Mann's oeuvre and Heat in particular. But let's keep it brief to talk about what is it about that movie in particular that tickles your creative side.

[Corey Gilbert]: 11:01

Yeah, where do you start? But I'll start with what I love the most about movies and that's the characters and the character development. And here is a fairly long movie, especially for its time, with an ensemble cast. There's certainly two main characters, but the ensemble cast is fantastic as well. And what I love about Michael Mann is, even with his feature version of Miami Vice, sometimes the side characters are even more interesting than the main characters. One of the things that I love about Heat is that within this big, giant crime saga, he actually wove in this little small social justice theme with the

[Frank]: 11:51

Dennis Haysbert.

[Corey Gilbert]: 11:51

Dennis Haysbert character where he was being completely manipulated by the system, by his parole officer, by this jerk that he worked for that knew that he had no recourse because he was an African-American on parole. And so here's this big awesome story with Al Pacino and Robert De Niro in the famous scene with them in the cafe. But yet that part right there has been an inspiration for me to write. I actually wrote a script based on a character that was like that character. And it's like inside this big giant movie is a little piece of social justice, right? And then he finally defaults back, because what's he supposed to do? Basically, the people that complain, I'm going to go on a little tangent, the people that are probably the ones that complain about crime are the guys that force this guy to just feel like he had to go back to doing it. So you're your own problem. But that's what I love about Michael Mann is that he's just an amazing writer. Yeah. And then his films are completely technically accurate. He's doing all these things with the action that's perfect and flawless and the production value is incredible. But then his characters are beautiful characters with true struggles that you can vicariously attach to.

[Paul DeNigris]: 13:11

Yeah, I went in my recent rewatch. I was I was struck by I had forgotten how all of the side characters had their own little arcs, right, because the reputation of the movie, the De Niro Pacino dynamic, you know, sort of overshadows all of that. And and I was it was it was fun to revisit it and go, oh, yeah. Like Val Kilmer's character has this great arc. Dennis Haysbert's character is this great arc. And they're and they're woven in and they never feel like they're separate. They're they are. they're a thread in this bigger tapestry and it's wonderful. So go ahead.

[Frank]: 13:45

Well, and so this is why I just told you a moment ago, I like working with Corey. He makes me think about all that stuff. When I saw it the first time, I was like, okay, Sizemore's got a Galeo 7.62 versus Kilmer and De Niro rockin’ M4s, right, with 5.56 and like their ammo is not compatible. But I mean, that's for me, it was like, I was fascinated by the tactics and I was fascinated by the accuracy of it and how, how serious they took it. And they... It was so different in the time back then of Schwarzenegger and Stallone. And it was like, here's what feels like really authentic action that could be terrifying. And, but it was still so compelling. And I wasn't, I don't think I was aware at that time in my filmmaker journey that I was really compelled because Sizemore is there in that moment. And De Niro is like, you know, you don't have to do this. and you got money saved up and all these things. And he gave the ring to his girl at the dinner when they were all around. But then Sizemore's character is like, “For me, the action is the juice.” And it's like, I mean, there are so many subtleties underneath the action that I've grown to educate myself in. I guess that's been my film school. The technical aspects of the action and the guns and the sets and the ski masks, I've known that for forever, but. That for me is where the film really flourishes, is that it's so many great performances and it's shot beautifully. And I remember reading a review early on when the movie came out before I saw it. And it said that Michael Mann makes the characters seem like sharks on land, that they all seem like these predators all moving on dry land, moving around and they can kill anything at any time. And that just... It's really like how the characters came about. But if you've never seen it to your audience, make sure they go to YouTube and watch LA Takedown, which is the TV version of Heat before Michael Mann had a budget, before Michael Mann had those great actors. And it's such a reminder to me that even a great director like Mann can make dog shit, I hope we can curse on here, because it is, it's not a great movie and it's practically the same script. So that was such an education to me on you can have a great script. But you do need to have great locations. You do need to have a fantastic cinematographer. You do need to have somebody who's got the look and feel. And sorry, they're mowing my lawn right now. I don't know how loud that is. But yeah, it just was, if anybody hasn't seen it and you're a fan of it, go watch LA Takedown on YouTube. It's such a mind blowing thing to see the bad version. And then later on with the right tools, that same artist make a better sculpture.

[Paul DeNigris]: 16:32

I see LA Takedown as the previs version of Heat

[Frank]: 16:32

Yeah,

[Corey Gilbert]: 16:32

It's almost like the sketch. Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: 16:38

Yeah. Michael Mann didn't have Unreal Engine, so he just got a bunch of other actors to read the dialogue more or less OK.

[Frank]: 16:47

Yeah, yeah, all right.

[Paul DeNigris]: 16:48

And he kind of worked out a lot of his action blocking and stuff like that. And then when he got the budget, he went, OK, better actors, better blocking, better stuff. Yeah, all around.

[Frank]: 16:56

Shout out on Heat though. This one of my favorite stories is there's an urban legend going around and you can Google it that the LAPD SWAT team or I think it's the US Marines like in their training and bootcamp shows the clip of Kilmer doing a speed reload with his mag coming back up. And they, and they say, listen, if this piece of shit Hollywood punk can do it that fast, you better be able to do it faster than that. So just a, a tip of the hat to how well trained they were.

[Paul DeNigris]: 17:25

Here's the thing, right? Like you said, Frank, he's got, Mann's got all the bells and whistles. He's got all the, he's got the great cinematography, he's got the great locations, the great acting, the, you know, all the great technical advisors, armorers, people to train them, all of that. But it's always in service of the story, right? And that's, again, a recurring theme on this show is the visual, the reason I love working with independent filmmakers is we're never doing visual effects for the sake of visual effects. It's always to support the story. Right? So this little tangent about Heat may feel like a tangent, but it really speaks to the philosophy that the three of us share about all the technical prowess in the world doesn't really matter if you're not telling a good story.

[Corey Gilbert]: 18:12

Yeah, everything's, you know, I live by the rule, everything has to have motivation, right? You know, that's what you're commenting on with Michael Mann is, yeah, all the cars are amazing and all the houses and all the locations, but they're all supposed to be, you know, because that's the story he's telling. And so it's all motivated, none of it's gratuitous, ever.

[Frank]: 18:32

There's several times when Corey and I have been working together, he was like, why does he have to hold that? Like why are you putting that on him? I was like, well, it looks cool. He was like, man, no, no. It's got to have some, why do we need it? If we don't need it, let's move on, Frank. Cause that's like, that's a

[Paul DeNigris]: 18:49

Yeah, that's great. So, uh, so why don't we, we move away from Michael Mann and move to, uh, Ziede and Gilbert. What, what have you guys done? Just give us like brief rundown of some of the projects you've worked on. Uh, and in particular, you know, keep, let's keep the focus to things that used VFX to help tell the story, whether, whether I worked on them or not.

[Frank]: 19:10

Man, our first short was no VFX, and it starred Tim Robinson, who's on, I Think You Should Leave. It was this bank robbery comedy improv short called Robbed. But we could, I don't know if we needed VFX on that one, but we've shot different ones in different situations. But when we started to do VFX was Black, which was this digital series. And we realized that... We're doing more things where we need that. But when we collaborated with you, the big one that we did was Volition, which we did a while back and it stalled. I'm sure we'll talk about it. But then the most recent one we did is Exile. And I will say this, what we did on Volition was such an education, such a bootcamp, we were so much more prepared for Exile. Would you agree, Corey? Add your thoughts.

[Corey Gilbert]: 20:04

Definitely agree. What we did on Exile, we tried to actually do on Volition, which was create all the assets, and we're talking about basically computer stuff and things on computer screens that people are interacting with, and they're a direct part of the story. And so what we did on Exile, we tried to do on Volition, which was create all those digital assets ahead of time. and then actually have the actors control them on the screens. But it was so much content, and it wasn't just moments in the script. It was basically 99% of the time, the stuff is interacting and a part of the film

[Frank]: 20:47

We even called it...

[Corey Gilbert]: 20:47

on Volition. And so we just...

[Frank]: 20:50

yeah, the screen on Volition was a character of its own because it had so much information, right?

[Paul DeNigris]: 20:57

Why don’t we backtrack. Sorry, why don't we backtrack and give us a quick summary, synopsis of Volition and then I'll run a clip of the film so the audience can get a feel for what it's about.

[Frank]: 21:12

Yeah, yeah, we, there was a competition for, the screenwriting competition here in Chicago for a short film and I wrote it. We got, we won and this camera house in town. Corey, remind me of the camera house.

[Corey Gilbert]: 21:25

Magnanimous Media.

[Frank]: 21:26

Yeah, magnanimous. And so we got a little bit of an extra budget for camera and gear and stuff. And we put it together and we had a plan. Oh, so the simple premise is a Chicago police officer wakes up in a chair, bolted to a chair against his own will. And some guy is there and basically presents him with a choice. Uh, you can be a vigilante and you can do this thing and stop this bad person. Or if you don't, I will do it. And then I will blame you. because it's the right thing to do. So hence the name Volition. It's gotta be of your own volition, your choice. There's a twist at the end and it really is about if you're presented with good and evil, right and wrong, are you really willing to do what's necessary to stop it? And that seems like a simple question, but it is not. Now, from that point, one thing that came up was this screen this... the guy who is the hostage taker if you will the kidnapper has to present a powerful case to this police officer. He's got to lay it out as best he can and the screen really is the medium that we're gonna use to do that and we had a plan to do practical I've used PowerPoint and Photoshop to build practical assets that we can record on camera. Our problem was this our lead actor, one of the lead actors, Christian Stolte, who's a regular as I think it's Mouch on or Munch, I don't know.

[Corey Gilbert]: 23:55

He's a regular on, he's one of the main cast on Chicago Fire.

[Frank]: 23:59

Yeah, yeah, I just can't pronounce his character's name. But he, our other actor, Pete Kelly, was nice enough because they had done acting school together to say, hey, Christian Stolte is available. Well, he was available for this, such this limited window. And all of a sudden it was like, we gotta go go go go go. And I was working and parenting and it's like, I would have needed an extra couple of weeks to really develop all those assets. And Corey and I just were like, hey, we've got the actor, we've got the location. Magnanimous has given us the funds. We just got to go. And they had a game plan. They green screened it. They mapped it and all these different things. And we did get such amazing stuff, but we just, we were ill prepared for really what was needed on the back end. And then, but I think the greatest thing that I think that Corey and I, at least for me, Corey and I, I hope you feel the same way, that we followed through. And it took a ton of money and a ton of time. And we... We hustled to try to find every way as an independent filmmaker that we could to get it done. But we just had to bite the bullet at some point and be like, hey, man, we just got to call the right people who have the skill sets to get this thing done. So what else, Corey? Am I missing anything there?

[Corey Gilbert]: 25:10

No, I mean, that's a good point. I mean, really it came down to we ran out of time because Christian Stolte, amazing actor, was willing to give, you know, television actor, tons of clout, awesome actor to give us this day. And so it's like, well, we got to just take advantage of this actor and get this stuff in the can and we'll figure out, well, let's just put green on the computer screens and let's go. You know, and we, you know, we've got the team and the crew that can shoot the green screen well enough so that it'll matte out later. But then it's about replacing the matte with all this, with 12 minutes of VFX, with 12 minutes of continual VFX, which is lots and lots of work for somebody's team, not probably just one person. And so we got it in the can, we picture locked it, and we had certain people that were wanting to maybe come on board to help us do it, but it was individual people, and doing it freelance. And it's just too much time. It's months and months of work for like one person, probably months and months of work for your, Paul, I'd let you talk about it, but just from my limited knowledge on the process, it's just tons and tons of time. And so, and then we even actually had a school here in Chicago that one of the VFX teachers loved the film. He saw the picture lock and was like, hey, I'd love to like use this for my class. And so then we had this plan like, oh, the students will like take us, use their semester of their class at this film school and then complete the project as part of their class. Well, even that was tough, right? And so that unfortunately didn't totally work out either. And then finally, Paul, that was when we realized we needed to come to a team like yours and really get it done. And like Frank said, bite the bullet and just, you know. put up the funds to get the film done. Because again, to Frank's point, we always finish every project we do. And this one, even though it took several years after it was picture locked, we knew we were never gonna give up on it and we were gonna get it done somehow. Plus, it had Christian Stolte in it and Pete Kelly, another amazing actor and friend of ours, it was just like awesome. And it was a great script and it was a great story. Frank explained the whole thing behind the title and why it's called, it's just like. was too good to not finish. And so that's, you know, eventually we came to Paul's team and Foxtrot and they knocked it out of the park because that's what they do.

[Frank]: 27:38

And it was so good at that point, Corey and I were like, we could sort of do this one person to do sound, but we even spent more money and went to, what was the name of the studio here in Chicago?

[Corey Gilbert]: 27:48

Oh, we went to BAM.

[Frank]: 27:50

And BAM Studios, we went in for a full sound session and they like meticulously did these things that we didn't even think about. And it just, when you see all those aspects, all those artists come together who are so talented in what they do, it really does make the project shine.

[Corey Gilbert]: 28:06

Mm-hmm.

[Paul DeNigris]: 28:07

And again, it's all hanging on the spine of story and character, right? That's why people, you know, that's why people want to go the extra mile for a film like that, right? Because they see it. The performances are great. Writing's great. You know, let's, let's bring everything else up to that level. The first time you brought Volition to me was shortly after picture lock. And I think it was the same, the same sort of idea. You, you pitched it to me as this is when I was still teaching, pitched it to me as is this a class project? And I looked at it and saw the scope of the work. And I said, I don't think this is a semester long project with a, with a dozen, a dozen VFX students, right? I think that this is. bigger than a group of students can accomplish in a semester. And you guys said, okay, we'll go figure it out. And you went on that journey that you've talked about and then ultimately came back to me.

[Frank]: 29:00

You could say crawling back.

[Paul DeNigris]: 29:00

No, I would never say that and I would never say I told you so.

[Frank]: 29:07

That's right.

[Paul DeNigris]: 29:09

I really, really wanted you guys to be successful with it. And that was the thing, I never wanted to. I didn't want to say yes, commit my students to it, set them up for failure, set you guys up for disappointment, right? That was never something that I wanted to do when I brought an outside project to a group of my students, because it's demoralizing, right? If they spend a semester working on something and it doesn't get finished, or it's not up to the quality that you guys are happy with, and then you feel like, okay, we wasted 15 weeks with this group of kids working on it, it's just. It's really bad for students when they're in that situation. And so it was never something that I would be willing to do to take on something that I didn't think they could finish or that was beyond their skill level, where their ability to commit time and that, and that really is what came down to it. It wasn't, it was never like, Oh, we don't like this movie. We're not doing it. It was this movie's good. We can't execute to that level right now in this situation. And so I'm glad that we did have I did have another chance later on to come back to it and come at it from the professional aspect with my company rather than with students. Ironically, one of the kids who was a student of mine at the time that you brought it to me was then working for me. So ultimately he did get to work on the film.

[Frank]: 30:30

Can I throw something out here though?

[Paul DeNigris]: 30:30

And that's Gabe Vigil. He’s my right hand man...

[Frank]: 30:34

And just hearing you through that conversation and the last couple of projects Corey and I have done, and I just wanna speak to your audience, bite the bullet. If you get a situation where you're looking at some part of your project that has to get done and somebody comes to you with a quote, number one, they're probably gonna be your friend. Right? So they're a collaborator who's giving you a rate that I guarantee is lower than they would probably charge somebody else. Right? So they're and they're just telling you this is kind of what I need. And this happened on our other project, Exile, with Paul, our editor, who's amazing. But don't like I don't know what the word is. Don't quibble. Don't don't you know, hem and haw about it. Whatever it's going to feel like in that quick moment to say it's 750 more than we expected. I don't know what we're gonna do, but I'm just telling you from experience, spend the money. You'll be less frustrated. It'll take less time, less worry. And I hate to say it's only money, but it is. It's just dollars. It's ones and zeros in a bank account. And what you're gonna get is what you want out of the project. And we chased our tails around and around trying to figure it out. And it's not easy. And I guess the lesson there too, is if you're going to venture into a project, make sure you only build a project that is big enough or that matches the budget you have. If you don't have a budget, don't make a big project. Right. But if you are going to swing for the fences, make sure you've got the grit and capability and the backing to do this. And Corey and I both have full-time day jobs and we split these costs right down the middle. And it's just like, let's do it, man. Are we in? Are you in? I'm in. great, let's do it. So maybe you need a tribe who's gonna pitch into the coffers and say, hey, let's do that. But I'm telling you, man, it is worth it. It's a short-term pain for long-term results that are really what you, your cast, your crew, all the people who put their blood, sweat, and tears into that one, two, or three days of shooting, telling you, man, just do it. It's the best thing you can do.

[Paul DeNigris]: 32:43

Yeah, to me, it goes back to the, you know, what I, what I always called the production triangle, right? Good, fast, cheap pick two, right? You can be a one, a one person band, you know, and be, be a filmmaker, a young filmmaker starting out watching YouTube tutorials and you can write. Shoot, edit color, do VFX, do sound. You can do all that. It's going to take a long time. Or you can raise some money. Hire a good cinematographer. If you're not. Great with lighting and camera. Hire good sound people. Please hire good sound people. That's the number one thing. Right? This isn't even a plea for you to hire VFX artists. Hire a good sound person. If you have $1 to spend on your crew, spend it on sound,

[Frank]: 33:27

You wanna[Paul DeNigris]: right? make a lot of money in this industry, go become a sound person.

[Paul DeNigris]: 33:31

Yeah,[Frank]: Corey and I have said this a lot over. so yes, you can be a one person show, if you're willing to put in the time and learn all those different crafts. Or you can raise some money, focus on the thing you're good at, surround yourself with a support team that's good at what they do and passionate about what they do and you get a better product.

[Corey Gilbert]: 33:54

Yeah, I'll say this to that. When my brother Curtis and I started our company, as I mentioned before, I had a background, but I didn't formally go to film school, neither did my brother. And what we did when we started our company, the first thing is like, okay, we ought to hire people and surround ourselves with people that are better at this than we are. And that's what we did. Everything that I've learned and whatever skills and whatever skill sets that I have now, has been all built by learning from people that are really, really good at what they do. And that's why we hired them, you know, and they're good people. You know, the thing I'll say about filmmaking, you know, Frank was talking about, you know, don't bite off more than you can chew. The thing I'll say is, you know, I want to work with good people. Everybody's talented, right? Then it comes down to who fits me as a person and who fits my culture. You know, Frank obviously does that. That's why we've stuck together for over a decade and made at least a dozen projects together. But that's one of the things that I've learned in running a production company or just running a business, a small business, doesn't matter what industry, is that culture is everything, right? And I'll take give a shit over skill any day of the week, because at the end of the day, everybody's talented. That's why they're out in the industry and applying for the jobs, right? So work with people that... We're calling it your tribe. Build a tribe. Yes, do it. But that's what it's going to be. And so surround yourself with people that you fit well with and that you mesh well with. Because culture on a set is everything. Culture even in post-production is everything because it's all collaborative. So one of the things that Frank does very well is just creates an amazing energy on set. That's why I like. working for him and that's why I love when he comes and produces for me as well. He just creates a great culture on set and people love to be around him and it just makes everybody do a better job and then the product's better.

[Frank]: 36:03

And I know Paul's that way too.

[Paul DeNigris]: 36:05

Frank is so, hang on a second. I'm going to say one more thing about Frank while we're tooting Frank's horn. Frank is so adept at conveying that positive energy that even in his LinkedIn posts, you feel it. When he posts one of his lengthy things about like corporate culture or something he's learned or some trip he's been on or something. It's like you're in the room with him. There's just this warm energy that comes out of everything that Frank puts out. So, all all right I’ll stop before we make him cry.

[Frank]: 36:39

Paul, you and I have had this conversation, you and I have had this conversation in the VFX world, because I know this is a VFX podcast, that if you're gonna do an independent project, please treat it that way. Don't treat it like a Hollywood project, right? You're not paying millions of dollars, you're not a studio, we're independents. So let's all lose ego and have a little bit of grace and understanding with each other. And the other part of it is, you gotta understand maybe somebody's going through something. So there's life or there's kids. And you've gotta come at whether it's your sound person or your editor, you can't barge in and say, well, why isn't this done? Or I need all these things. It's like, hey, bro. Hey, hey, ma'am, just slow down for a second and let's talk and collaborate and collaborate. That's twice now I've made up words collaborate because to Corey's point, it's all culture. I would say this too. Corey, I think you know where I'm going. You're not going to make those tribal bonds. Don't they don't come quick. You've got to let them sort of percolate and. and grow and get there because Corey and I have gone through so many ups and downs and then there's the stress of onset and the clock and time and the money and all that. And you kind of got to go through those fires. And now we've done it so many times that I can see when Corey's there and I got to get out of his way. You know, or I can see when, you know, Paul, you're telling me, guys, this, I know what you want. This is what you should do. and I don't take it personally, I take it professionally. And so that's, you know, it's almost like The Bear on FX. I don't know if you've seen it, when the

[Paul DeNigris]: 38:42

I have.

[Frank]: 38:42

chest go like this, they're like, hey, you know, I'm stressed, you're stressed, it's just work, right? And so I think that really helps. So if you're gonna work with the VFX artist or a sound designer, you know, or an editor, give them some grace, man. They don't want you in their kitchen. They know you gotta be there tasting the food, but... Let them cook. Let them do what they do the way they do it.

[Paul DeNigris]: 39:05

Trusting your team is a really important thing too. When you do find those collaborators, trusting them to do what they're good at. You know, there's a term that we use in VFX, pixel fucking. When a client comes in and they're like, that pixel there, can we move it here? And there's no rhyme or reason to it. It's not helping tell the story. It's not helping sell the moment. It's not helping make the VFX more real. It's just move this here just for the sake of a note. And that's when it becomes, it starts to feel like a job and a slog. It doesn't feel like fun, creative, creativity. And I know it can't, every moment can't be fun. Every moment can't be, you know, the best time we've ever had working on a project, right? There's gonna be times when you're gonna get a note and it's gonna suck and you have to do it. But then there's times when the note is just like, What are we doing? Like you've seen three versions of this already. Is it telling the story that you want to tell? Why are we messing, like, why are we at that level where we're messing with pixels? We're freezing frames. Like the audience is not ever gonna notice this.

[Frank]: 40:12

Would I volunteer that what it is a little thing spelled with three letters called ego?

[Paul DeNigris]: 40:17

Yeah.

[Frank]: 40:18

Could it possibly be that you hear that your title is director so that you have to have your finger on every single thing? Like the whole idea of directing is just guiding. And all these people have a job. Let them do what they do. Don't micromanage them. You know, just let them cook.

[Paul DeNigris]: 40:36

Yeah, well, you know, a saying that I like to repeat is 90% of directing is casting, right? And and your point about LA Takedown versus Heat is an illustration of that. It's the same movie with a an inferior cast the first time around and a superior cast the second time around. Did Michael Mann suddenly become a better director? Michael Mann's been a great director for a long time, right? He's made great movies for a long time. Did Michael Mann suddenly just take a level in directing? No, he had the money to hire better actors and then trusted them to do the job. So that, that to me goes to, it speaks to how you interact with your crew. Right. If 90% of directing actors is casting 90% of making a movie is the people you hire around you to support your vision and then trusting them to do it.

[Frank]: 41:28

And I've learned a lot from Corey in that way that you need to honor everybody. Every single person that's gonna do what they're doing, you got it, you can't diminish anyone. You have to raise everybody up, whether that's the grip, the PA, just the set hands who are college interns on our last project. We had six or seven people show up and I didn't even know who they were. They were just friends of friends who showed up and they were holding stuff and moving tarp. You know, but we have to like treat them with that massive respect, not just like average level, but just grace because they're, you know, they've got to feel that from you as the leader.

[Corey Gilbert]: 42:05

Yeah, I can't say enough about casting. It's my favorite part of pre-production. It goes back to my love of movies is the character development. You probably say a lot about a lot of the films I've made in terms of some of the choices I've made. But the acting, that's the one thing that I've always been very proud of. Even in my worst. films in terms of like how they got ended up putting together and paced, the acting is still just incredible and that's because that's what I care about the most and you know I love the casting process a lot of producers and directors like kind of don't but I love it and I love to audition with actors and I love to spend as much time with it as I can on each project And you know, our Exile, the project that Frank and I just put out, our main actor got recognized at a film festival. She won like the best actor in her genre. And to me, you know, an actor's award is a director's award in my opinion.

[Paul DeNigris]: 43:14

Agreed. So, yeah, let's talk about Exile actually, because it has a lot of parallels to Volition. Lots of screens, sniper, gunplay, drama, kind of a sparse location set, whatever you want to call it, right? Mysterious voice over comms manipulating the sniper. There's a lot of... I feel like you guys are building up to a sniper anthology or something.

[Frank]: 43:45

We’re working on the third one right now.

[Corey Gilbert]: 43:48

I've, yeah, I immediately, you know, I told Frank, I'm like, dude, this is a trilogy, right? Like we did Volition, then you wrote this, like, there has to be a third, you know, in to make it a complete like trilogy.

[Frank]: 44:01

We're kind of thinking two old veteran snipers that are like an Enemy at the Gates thing where they've got a bead on each other and they won't get out, I don't know.

[Paul DeNigris]: 44:11

So tell us, tell us again, little quick synopsis of, of Exile. I'll run a clip. We can talk about the differences between that, the execution of that project and the execution of Volition and how you applied what you learned on Volition

[Frank]: 44:28

Corey, synopsis, you're the director, Corey. Synopsis of exile, hit it.

[Corey Gilbert]: 44:32

Oh, yeah, I was going to say, well, you're the writer. You know, so, yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, I'll try to do as close to a log line as possible. Exile's a story about a career assassin who is disenchanted with who she's always been and wants out of an organization and of an industry, really, that you really can't walk away from without. giving up your life. And so she schemes a plan to try and escape during the last assignment she's on. And then there's, as with Frank's projects, in this trilogy, there's always a twist at the end.

[Paul DeNigris]: 46:18

All right, so not a lot of VFX in that film. In fact, we did one shot, if I'm not mistaken. One single, no, maybe it was two. Maybe

[Frank]: 46:28

it was the one We talked about two, it was the one[Paul DeNigris]: Was it just the one? Yeah.

[Paul DeNigris]: 46:33

Yeah, okay, so it was just the explosion. Just the explosion when her laptop exploded, spoilers.

[Corey Gilbert]: 46:38

It was just the explosion, although you and your team had some great ideas for that final shot where she comes and picks up the gun. But I guess it was a little out of our budget and we thought, well, the scene still works. And even Paul, we asked you about it and you said, look, it still works. It'd be cool, it'd be great, but without it, it's still there. I mean, you've got the practical haze and all this stuff. And so we didn't do that part, but you did the explosion. And it's fantastic. This one, we planned for it to actually be VFX. We shot the shots in order for it to be the right type of footage that your team needed, I hope. Love to hear your comments on that. clean plan with Frank and I and the cinematographer. to make sure that we provided the footage that would work to do that final explosion. So.

[Paul DeNigris]: 47:43

Yeah, it worked great. What you guys shot was exactly what we needed. And it was really refreshing actually to do just a single shot and be able to put everything that we had creatively into that single shot and make it as good as possible. A lot of times when filmmakers come to us, it's paint out this reflection, paint out this boom pole. You know, can you replace the phone screen? It's all good. You know, I'll take, I'll take the work. It's, it's fine. It's bread and butter type stuff. But when it comes down to it, it's like, give me something really juicy that, uh, I can collaborate on with you and with my team. And, and that shot was a collaboration, uh, between myself as compositor and, uh, and Seth Wise, who is my animation supervisor doing, uh, fluid dynamic simulation of the explosion in X-Particles and all of that sort of stuff. And it's you allowing us to use some tools that we don't always get to use because the client eats their budget on, you know, paint out the boom pole and stuff like that. And they don't really get to, they don't get to say, Hey, do something really extremely cool for us and make it, make it sing because it's the one and only VFX shot and it's gotta be perfect. And it's gotta feel real. Uh, and, uh, and again, Michael Mann and other, uh, other filmmakers of his, of his ilk, uh, I always go back to Christopher Nolan. I want, and I said to Seth, this needs to feel like an explosion in a Christopher Nolan movie, not from a Michael Bay movie. Right? Which was a really[Frank]: We always say that. easy way to communicate to him[Frank]: it feels like a Michael Bay movie. it was an easy way for me to communicate to him the type of filmmakers that you guys are, right? Because I was able to say, we're doing the hospital explosion in The Dark Knight. We're not doing, you know, pick any explosion in Transformers.

[Corey Gilbert]: 49:35

That's right. Yeah, and it was it was awesome because you know, we knew that it was a certain type of explosion, right? You know, that it would be like the small arms fire style. Frank can speak more to the technicalities of it, but like a shape charge type of thing that's meant to be contained so that there's like no collateral damage or whatever. Right. And so it was really fun to kind of, you know, turn it over to Frank and you. Paul and have Frank kind of explain to you and give you some benchmarks of what type of an explosive that it would be and what that charge would look like when it's detonated. So, you know, and it just looks incredible and totally real. And, you know, when I show it to people, they're just like, oh, how'd you blow up a building? And said, well, we didn't, you know.

[Frank]: 50:17

But to your point a moment ago when you talked about the pre-work, there's two things. The first thing is we didn't have any digital assets on the screens anymore because we built them ahead of time. We had the time, we put in the work. And just for your independent community of filmmakers, we use Photoshop and PowerPoint and PowerPoint has built in animations. We use some stock footage. We built in assets and I was just using a clicker, a PowerPoint clicker off-set and I knew the beats in moments and when the cam was there it could get in focus out of focus We'd make the asset come up the way we want that was our plan originally, but we were stuck on the timeframe But not this time around so if you know the fix it in post It should be like a t-shirt like don't ever do this Like but if you know you've got something that is only in post you can plan so much more, you know efficiently. But the other part of it was to help you as the VFX team I don't know if it was spurred by your questions or we just wanted to do it. We really laid out the structure, the design of the weapon, the blast radius. I think we, as a group, look collectively at a couple of YouTube clips of IEDs going off so that we could see the explosion pattern. The concept for anybody in your audience who hasn't seen the film yet, it is a small Pelican case that is steel lined on the inside with a small compound C4 explosive charge underneath a laptop that's triggered remotely. So it's designed that it's gonna work in a specific direction at the computer operator, and it's gonna be in this one targeted area, and she's in the top floor of an office building in downtown Chicago. So the blast radius would only be about 10 total feet of actual concussive force, fire, smoke. And so how do you do that in a millisecond? And you're right, there are two shots. There's that little millisecond of the explosion coming off of the laptop. But then on the outside, What's that smoke and concussive effect on the outside of the building? And how do you do it in a way that still feels realistic? And I, at least for me, searching for those YouTube clips of examples of real explosions was really helpful because Paul was like, which one? And Corey and I were like, that one. That's the closest element that we can think. And I think it just helped guide the process effectively.

[Corey Gilbert]: 52:36

Mm-hmm.

[Paul DeNigris]: 52:36

Yeah, I'm a huge fan of real world reference. I say this all the time to my team because we do a lot of muzzle flashes and stuff, right? And you can, that's a classic example of something you can get complacent about because you, oh, I've done these a million times. I'll just do what I did last time. And what happens is as you begin to drift further and further away from reality, you don't realize it because well, this is what mentally it's supposed to look like, right? So reference going back and watching, you know. shell casing, injections and things like that, or watching, um, you know, real, real shape charge explosions and, you know, all of that sort of stuff. I always joke that if, if the FBI ever audited my, my Google search history, they'd be like, this dude's a serial killer or something.

[Corey Gilbert]: 53:17

Hmm. Yeah, that'd be Frank too. For sure. For Frank, you know,

[Frank]: 53:24

Yeah,

[Corey Gilbert]: 53:24

yeah.

[Frank]: 53:24

same. Yeah. But something that blew my mind recently, Nolan doesn't use muzzle flashes and he doesn't use real weapon fire. So I watched Tenet over and over and there's a lot of scenes where it's pure audio. So I don't wanna take away any VFX work from you, but if you're an independent filmmaker, the sound of a gun going off or the sound of an explosion. can do so much more for the audience than just the visual because it's milliseconds. So I've watched a lot of Nolan stuff now where a person will bring up a gun. I don't even see a shell going out. I don't see a muzzle flash. It's just the bang, you know, and the audience jolts a little bit and Nolan got across his point and he keeps moving forward pretty quickly.

[Paul DeNigris]: 54:06

Right. Yeah.

[Frank]: 54:06

Yeah.

[Corey Gilbert]: 54:07

Mm-hmm.

[Paul DeNigris]: 54:07

And similarly in your explosion scene, you know, you guys are doing a lot of the heavy lifting with sound. You're also doing it with practical smoke on set with some lighting effects on set to, so that when, you know, we have that digital explosion kind of sandwiched in between a practical light going off and an actor reacting, and then the, the smoke and you know, sparks and whatever after that, that sandwich of real fake real kind of makes the whole thing work way better.

[Frank]: 54:39

Corey kept putting haze in the scene. I was like, is that too much? He was like, No, keep going. More, more smoke, more haze. It turned out really, really well.

[Corey Gilbert]: 54:50

yeah. And that final shot, you know, because I knew that, you know, that was going to be that was possibly going to have to be our, you know, residue from an explosion. And so, you know, I just wasn't shy with the haze and that final, you know, in that final sequence. that final, you know, in that final sequence. So. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I just, for your audience, for the VFX stuff, you know, you know, we, we. We went into it with a plan knowing that our story was going to be told very well with just this one piece of VFX. Frank wrote a script where there only needed to be the one moment. There could have probably been a bunch more, but there didn't need to be to tell a compelling story. The point being, just don't bite off more than you can chew. Tell a story that you know you can tell well. All independent filmmakers, just tell a story that you know you can tell well with however much resources and funding you know you can get and then just start there and then finish that one and then move on to the next one.

[Frank]: 56:01

All of that and then have Corey as your director. Because we shot for two days and it was like a lot of shots and we took our time. Paul, I crap you not. We were over time. We had only like 30 minutes left and we had three shots left. And I get this point where I'm like, we're not gonna make it, we're not gonna make it. And Corey was like, just leave me alone. And the last shots of the film were the last them, one right after another. He was in like a laser zone and the last shot, I think is the best shot of the whole movie. So you could show that to your audience right now if you want to, it's cool. But you were in your zone, brother.

[Paul DeNigris]: 56:43

Frank Ever the director, he's giving direction to my editor. No, it's great. What's one piece of advice you would give to independent filmmakers who, and I think we've probably already covered this, but let's put a point on it. What's one piece of advice you would give to an independent filmmaker who wants to use VFX to help tell their story and maybe doesn't have experience with it yet?

[Corey Gilbert]: 57:11

I have a piece of advice. Hopefully it's not too jargony, but create an animatic for whatever sequences the VFX is going to be in. For instance, our explosion, and perhaps you'll show it in the edit of this, but our explosion in Exile, it was one explosion. We knew it was going to happen in one or two shots. And so you know I created actual, like, storyboards that are the exact framing of the shots that we were gonna do, and then just did a fake Photoshop explosion, and then create an animatic, right? So even if you're just doing stick drawings or whatever, create an animatic, put it together in Premiere, and time it out, and have that with you on set on your iPad, and have that for the cinematographer and the director and the actors, if there's actors in the scene, and just... Yeah, create an animatic, even if it's just like your own, you know, bad drawings, just create an animatic for the crew and the cast when you're on set so that you know you're doing it correctly.

[Frank]: 58:19

Wise words. I think mine is something I learned from you, Paul. If you are planning on doing a project that is going to have VFX, even when you're still in the writing process, like if you get a first draft of the script, go find your VFX artist. Before you ever get to post, or you ever get to set even, go get them. Go get them, show them the script, ask them questions. They will tell you what is realistic or not realistic. They'll tell you what a possible budget might be. so that you can account for those things. And then when you're in the writing process, all of a sudden you're like, well I have three different explosions or this one thing where this jet flies overhead. And you're like, well do I need the jet? Because the jet's an extra two grand. Do we not need that? Is it relevant to the story? And so what you can do is you can calculate everything you're putting into the bucket before you take that bucket to set. And the other thing I learned from you is, then, they'll tell you, the VFX team will tell you exactly what they need from you. And the earlier they are involved in the process, the better it's gonna be for you, the production, all the crew, because they're not coming in on the back end trying to sift through your stack of papers going, well, let me see what I can do with this. So collaborate as early as possible. Yeah.

[Corey Gilbert]: 59:43

Sage advice there. That's just huge. Working with someone on the front end before you go into the project. In all the levels, especially VFX. But even with your editor and all that, I like to talk with people even on the post-production side before I go into a project.

[Frank]: 1:00:04

The other thing it does for me as the filmmaker, it lets me relax because there's nothing worse than you're doing something. You're like, we're gonna insert an explosion right here or we're gonna have this laser beam right here. And like, I dunno we'll figure it out on the back end. We'll get the person. Like that's stressful. But if you, you know, if Corey and I were doing something, we're like, all right, we've already coordinated. That's already prepared and it's on the shelf and when we need it, we can get there. So now we can focus our energy. and in the right direction, which is what we're doing in the moment on set.

[Paul DeNigris]: 1:00:36

Yeah, those are both great pieces of advice, the pre-production part and also the recruiting the team. I mean, it's again, recurring theme on the show. Where can people find out more about what you guys are up to and maybe get an early look at this next part of your sniper trilogy?

[Frank]: 1:00:59

It’s trilogy now. Dang it. We do have to make a third one, don't we? Corey, I mean, they should go obviously to your website, right? P3 Media Works.

[Corey Gilbert]: 1:01:07

Yeah, for me, p3mediaworks.com, that's my production company. You'll see maybe a couple of shots from a couple of my indie films, like maybe in some of our reels. It's technically not p3mediaworks.com, although my company is always sort of an executive director because we're using a lot of my gear and things like that. But p3mediaworks.com, that's where you can find out all about me.

[Frank]: 1:01:37

How long have I known you, Corey? 20 years?

[Corey Gilbert]: 1:01:41

2006, so, you know,

[Frank]: 1:01:45

All right.

[Corey Gilbert]: 1:01:45

17 years.

[Frank]: 1:01:47

That's when I had my website built with Corey. So it's that old, but I'll send you to it. It's powerforwardfilms.com. So it's there and it's got some stuff. I'm big on Instagram, F-T-Z underscore film. You can find me there. But creatively, those are the best places to find me.

[Paul DeNigris]: 1:02:03

That's great. I wanna thank you guys so much for spending this time with me. I hope my audience appreciates your wisdom and your advice and a little peek behind the curtain of the films that you guys have been doing. And I really encourage you, audience members, to follow these guys and watch what they're doing because they're doing some really cool stuff. And I wanna thank you all for watching the show if you're watching on YouTube or listening to the show if you're on one of the many podcast services that we’re listed on now. If you liked what you saw or heard, please, you know, throw us a like and a subscribe on YouTube. Or if you're on one of those podcasts aggregators, a follow, a star review or rating, any sort of thing like that is always going to help and please share the show with the independent filmmaker in your life who needs to know more about how to use VFX to tell their stories. For myself, my guests and my whole team at Foxtrot X-Ray. I'm Paul DeNigris signing off for the VFX for Indies show. Thanks so much.